Home » xyzzy » Tower » An interesting quote about income taxes. Food for thought.
Re: You have to be realistic.. [message #54605 is a reply to message #54604] Mon, 10 October 2005 19:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
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Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Yeah; allow me to apologise for my tardiness; the Sunday was an affair with the family and today I had class for 41/5 hours plus travel so I am pooped at this point.
I will produce don't worry but you are missing the point that the middle third pay most of the taxes; even by your analogy and another thing; the rich get more entitlements than the poor do.
Look at what you wrote. The lower 95% pay 60% of the taxes but make only 50% of the money Thats 95%. So figure on an individual basis how much each member of that 95% group pays at a 60% total compared to the 5% and what they pay at a 50% Total.
Ie; one guy paying income tax on 1.5 million earned income(Which by the way would not happen since he would shelter all of that), pays less than twenty guys pay making 75k$ per year.
That you can find in the charts pretty easy yourself while you wait.
Give me a little more time and I will post a good summary of the facts as reported in the IRS documents.

This is 180 degrees wrong.... [message #54606 is a reply to message #54605] Tue, 11 October 2005 06:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mr Vinyl is currently offline  Mr Vinyl
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Illuminati (1st Degree)
You said ;

"The lower 95% pay 60% of the taxes but make only 50% of the money Thats 95%. So figure on an individual basis how much each member of that 95% group pays at a 60% total compared to the 5% and what they pay at a 50% Total.
Ie; one guy paying income tax on 1.5 million earned income(Which by the way would not happen since he would shelter all of that), pays less than twenty guys pay making 75k$ per year."

Your numbers are wrong to start with. The top 95% pay 50% of the taxes while making 60% of the income.

The top 5% (a small minority) is paying as much as 95% (a large majority) in taxes. In other words a small handful of people who only make 40% of the income is paying the same as 95% of the people who make 60% of the income. Just using simple numbers ok. If the top 5% make 40% of the income, they should pay 40% of the taxes. Not 50%. Again this is assuming your numbers are correct which you haven't been able to prove. And I don't believe.

Re: This is 180 degrees wrong.... [message #54607 is a reply to message #54606] Tue, 11 October 2005 07:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
I was quoting the numbers you gave on your site. That is where the top 5% are shown to make 40% of the money. Check it out above.
I think you are confusing the amount of total taxes that come from the top 5% with the total amount in dollars that people earn. The taxes paid on income is a refelection of what is down on your 1040 as what you owe the government. It doesn't say anything about howm much total money the top 5% make; just the proportion of what they pay into taxes.
Don't worry I'm coming this is a good thing to do but takes a little time.

Geez! [message #54608 is a reply to message #54607] Tue, 11 October 2005 08:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mr Vinyl is currently offline  Mr Vinyl
Messages: 407
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Illuminati (1st Degree)
Getting frustrated here.

Try to understand Manual ok? Give it your best shot. Here is the quote from the site. Ready? Read carefully now. Here we go...

"the top 5 percent of taxpayers paid more than one-half (53.3 percent) of all individual income taxes, but reported roughly one-third (32.0 percent) of income."

Now if the top 5% paid 53.3% of all individual income taxes (a small minority of people paying over 50% of the taxes taken in.) And only made 32% of the income (not the 40% you stated) then that means 95% (a vast majority of the people.) Paid only 46.7% of all individual income taxes taken in at the same time making 68% of the income.

So let me try to simplify this as much as possible for you. Ready? He we go....


Top 5% made 32% of the income - Paid 53.3% of all taxes

Bottom 95% made 68% of the income - Paid 46.7% of all taxes


Ok? Get it? Not fair see? If it were fair the people making 68% of income would pay 68% of the taxes. Do you think it's fair that a group of people who make only 32% of the income should pay 53.3% of the taxes?

But let's stay on point! The thing you are supposed to be showing me is that the wealthiest people only pay 5%-8% in income taxes. This is what you stated and what you are supposed to be proving.

On top of this you are also suppose to be disproving the fact that the Bush tax cuts actually resulted in the rich paying more taxes and not less as you complain about, the "so called" tax cuts for the rich.




Re: Geez! [message #54609 is a reply to message #54608] Tue, 11 October 2005 10:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
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Illuminati (13th Degree)
O'Kay here we go. The wealthiest 5% pay taxes on their adjusted gross income. That is the same for us in the middle class. When you decide the total wealth of an individual you look at the total wealth of all assets and income. When you say the top5% paid over 50% of the income taxes that means they paid a dollar figure. It is a fraction of what their worth; it is not some amount that reflects their total worth it is only what they pay. If you as a middle class guy pay say 22% of your income after deductions then that is the portion of your wealth you give to the govt.
Now with the Alternative Minimum Tax the least you can pay is a percentage of your wealth but with tax shelters they can skate.
My point is this; the Tax System is progressive; the more you make the more you pay. If you pay 2.2K out of a salary of 100k and the wealthy guy pays 250k out of asset driven income of 23 million which puts him in the 5% bracket of taxpayers then you by percentage paid much more than he did. Even though he paid a lot more than you in real numbers.
I am working on IRS.Gov 02inrate.pdf (application) on their site. It breaks down all monies paid verses wealth accumulated. You can see it on the irs.gov site under current stats for income vs tax paid.
I will finish up soon but you can see it also; all of the numbers are there. It tells what percentage of total wealth a taxpayer holds and how much he pays.

I will be patient... [message #54610 is a reply to message #54609] Tue, 11 October 2005 10:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mr Vinyl is currently offline  Mr Vinyl
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Illuminati (1st Degree)
As an aside, We don't have to get into this much right now because I want to stay on task but...

The Alternative Minimum Tax was created in 1978 when Carter was President and the Democrats controlled congress. So how is it something the Republicans pushed through?

Re: out of curiosity [message #54611 is a reply to message #54610] Tue, 11 October 2005 11:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Martinelli is currently offline  Bill Martinelli
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What is a persons annual income level to be considered the top 5%?

And why should a person have to pay a higher tax rate because they earn more? Shouldn’t everyone just pay the same rate, and stop some of the money sheltering.


Re: out of curiosity [message #54612 is a reply to message #54611] Tue, 11 October 2005 11:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mr Vinyl is currently offline  Mr Vinyl
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I don't know what someone has to make to be in the top 5%. Sorry. I'm sure it's millions. But I do know that it is unfair for them to pay 53.3% of all the taxes taken in by the gov.

I agree we should all pay the same amount. A progressive tax is completely unfair. As we talked about above. A flat tax would be ideal.

Re: out of curiosity [message #54613 is a reply to message #54612] Tue, 11 October 2005 15:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
The wealthy do not want the flat tax; they are the people responsible for defeating that concept everytime it comes up in the debate. They control the congressmen and that is who votes on the budget.
The reason for a progressive tax is the simple fact that by definition the wealthier people consume more of the resources of the state and therefor should pay more.
This is all old hat and has been discussed to death on thousands of websites.
I have finally gotten my Adobe reader up to working. The IRS files were so big I needed to upgrade to the next level of Adobe to access them. It is finally working right.

Wasn't it Forbes that was pushing the flat tax recently? [message #54623 is a reply to message #54613] Wed, 12 October 2005 06:00 Go to previous message
Mr Vinyl is currently offline  Mr Vinyl
Messages: 407
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
But your right. He doesn't have much money.

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