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Chain gangs.... [message #54547 is a reply to message #54545] Fri, 07 October 2005 11:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mr Vinyl is currently offline  Mr Vinyl
Messages: 407
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
I agree. Prisoners should be made to work off the cost of their confinement. Prison should not have TV, baseball fields, basketball courts or weight lifting equipment. I could care less about jail being a deterrent (although it certainly should be hard time that's for sure). Jail is for punishment and nothing else. A criminal should also serve all of his time. None of this early release for good behavior crap. It should be extended time for bad behavior.

Re:I have to say Mr Vinyl is a man; not a bail-out [message #54548 is a reply to message #54545] Fri, 07 October 2005 12:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Let me just get the good part out of the way and say that in regards to drunk drivers who kill you are right on. That is an offense I would put up there with the BTK guy.
Taxes; Jesus H. Christ my property tax bill came for the next half and it went up 7%..thats 7%. I pay 7200.00$ per yr for a little 3 bdrm 1 1/2 bath house on a small lot. Thats not to mention state sales tax and the rest of the onerous tax burden on the middle class.
The tax anology hit's too close to home I see; bad choice. I am afraid I must insist on seperating out crime from infractions. The entire drug law as written is draconian. How can an insurance company pay for an alchoholic to be treated as a person with a disease then put the same guy in jail for having that disease. Maybe thats a better analogy. Know anyone who's been divorced? See whats left of their check at the end of the week? I mean it could drive people to do things they would regret..right?
The purpose of our penal system is supposed to be rehabilitation. If you think the bill for these services is high now...think about the aging of the prison population and the amazingly high amount of prisoners we have incarcerated for a first world nation. All of these guys are going to need massive amounts of health care in the near future; some committ crimes to be re-instated just to get the health care they need and can't get on the outside.
You should go to prison for capital crimes only. And those guys should fullfill the whole sentence. The rest should be made to provide restitution.
I am only concerned with getting the guy out of prison and making sure he stays there. If you create an animal in there from abusive and punishing behaviour he will be right back; you can be assured. Sometime you have to bite the bullet and do the positive thing.
Most people think jail is another country; but it is amazing how close many people come to that line without even thinking about it. A few boat drinks and you have a dead eleven year old like we had here in Suffolk last year. That may end in a guy doing time; a guy who never thought it could happen to him.

Re: Chain gangs.... [message #54549 is a reply to message #54547] Fri, 07 October 2005 12:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Does the concepts of; making a mistake once in your life..the quality of mercy..the sheer inability of the citizenry to provide the massive amounts of money needed to incarcerate so many individuals enter this at all?
If a guy embezzles money from his company; should he be thrown in the hole and stomped on a regular basis for that infraction? Or maybe ordered to make restitution and allowed to become a constructive citizen again?
Are there any contigent circumstances allowed in this approach to creating a law abiding citizenry?

Re: Chain gangs.... [message #54550 is a reply to message #54549] Fri, 07 October 2005 13:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Martinelli is currently offline  Bill Martinelli
Messages: 677
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
Na, I just cant agree with that stuff. I see prison as punishment. It act as a deterrent but if people say it doesn't then at the very least it can be a punishment for breaking rules. Rehabilitation is positive byproduct from being punished.

The punishment should fit the crime. You dont ground your kid for a year for writing on a wall and you wouldnt shack up an embezeler on death row. BUT. niether of the offenders should get the frills the prsions have now. Dont get me wrong, I dont think being in prison would be a picknick in anyway at all. I'm sure it's quite misserable indeed. I just think it should be worse. I dont want to pay for the way it is, I dont want to make any better, or nicer. It should the most rotten godaweful place known to mankind. It's prison, where those who cant obide by the rules of morality and safety that both we and they have voted on.

Make a mistake? Sure. Child support? I pay more than some earn. The laws are crazy. The things my ex got away with would have landed me in jail for harassment at the very least. I felt the laws were very skewed for the woman. I thought of moving to another country! It's funny now but boy it wasn't then. Some people might might make a choice to commit a crime with the justification that if they get caught, the punishment would be worth it.

Do you guys think there is one system that could work for everyone?
even if you look at the 3 of us in this little thread of the world. we would have 3 different systems. could one of them even be correct for all?


Re:I have to say Mr Vinyl is a man; not a bail-out [message #54551 is a reply to message #54548] Fri, 07 October 2005 13:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Martinelli is currently offline  Bill Martinelli
Messages: 677
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
Good God Man! you pay a lot out on the island. I pay 4500 for property and its a good price. for a 300k house you pay 8000, for 600k house might be 12k a year. million dollar house usually runs around 20-23k for taxes. We decided to get a boat and play around the water areas and stay in less atractive house. I just couldnt bring myself to pay more property tax.

Want get sick? go to remax.com or realtor.com and look in the state of TN. some of the listing have the taxes listed. you wont even believe it. You can get a house that cost 200k and a tax bill for 850! I have been telling the wife we need to go there when we retire.

Re:I have to say Mr Vinyl is a man; not a bail-out [message #54552 is a reply to message #54539] Fri, 07 October 2005 13:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Martinelli is currently offline  Bill Martinelli
Messages: 677
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
I could be wrong on the Borne again. I thought I heard she was. I dont know a thing about ginsburgs appointment. If I get a chance I'll take a look at some of her decisions and let you know what I think of the job she did. I'm not even sure I like any of the justices or appointed justices. I like that they all are a bit different and together they form a good decision, most of the time.

I never thought Bush could handle the pressure of the job. He doesn't strike me as being capable of thinking on his feet. I dont like the massive amounts of money we spend on foreign soil. I cant save the people in the middle east. They have been fighting for 2000 years and will continue to do so. I dont feel safer with Sadam gone. Is the world a better place with out him? Sure! but it was not imperative we remove him.
Wasnt there surplus money when Bush got in? He gave a tax break because of it I though. Now the national debt is beyond huge. The man says silly things when he talks. He does not come across as presidential. I gave him a vote the first time because I liked his tax policy. Then I felt betrayed with the whole war thing. I just cant get on board with it. 200 billion would a lot of good things in the united states. It's our money, lets use it here.


Re:I have to say Mr Vinyl is a man; not a bail-out [message #54554 is a reply to message #54551] Fri, 07 October 2005 14:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
I know we too are looking around. I however am afraid it will be too late. Look at the current listings for places like Willmington in North Carolina and areas of FLA around Daytona as well as parts of Delaware (no state tax). The prices are skyrocketing. I guess due to boomers looking to get in under the radar.
I hope this cools a little because I don't want to trade one high taxed area for another that rises exponentially due to ageing boomers flocking down there!
Plus you have to be near decent hospitals and health care facilities.
It's a bitch aint it?
I don't know about Tenn. though; might be a little too much for me in terms of the populace residing there. I never liked eating squirrell.

Re: Chain gangs.... [message #54555 is a reply to message #54550] Fri, 07 October 2005 15:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Hey; I'm sorry to hear about that thing Bill, I hope it didn't hit a nerve. Penal theory is dense and it doesn't seem to lend itself to easy solutions. Some states are easy time and some are real rough. I guess you could look at the status of recidivism to see if the easy ones or the hard ones do better.
As I say there are crimes and then there are crimes. I have no mercy...none for certain types of crime and I could care less if they hung those perpetrators. But in other cases I would be more hesitant to judge how they should be treated.
Maybe make them eat the loaf or something. You know about the LOAF?
In case it's not familiar the loaf is a ground up mess of soy beans and vegetable waste with fillers. They give it too prisoners who misbehave.
While the food is healthy it tastes so bad that they say prisoners try to escape rather than eat it. Grown men cry when it appears on their plate. Yeah; big tough guys. It's just that bad. It's like my mother-in-laws meatloaf.

Re:I have to say Mr Vinyl is a man; not a bail-out [message #54559 is a reply to message #54552] Fri, 07 October 2005 17:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Bill if I may. The reason we are in Iraq is this; the foundation of our dollar has in the past twenty years become tied to energy futures. Before this we never had any competition for our monetary system because the dollar was King. Now however there is a new player on the horizon; the Euro. Since much of the debt of the U.S. is held by foriegn investors we need to keep oil tied to the dollar as a hedge. The Iraqi's made it clear they were intent in the 1990's on re-structuring oil price in the world market through Euro's; which would remove any influence the U.S. has in the oil market other than as a consumer. No more ability to control price's. Thats why we went to war in reality.

Re:I have to say Mr Vinyl is a man; not a bail-out [message #54563 is a reply to message #54559] Fri, 07 October 2005 20:33 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Bill Martinelli is currently offline  Bill Martinelli
Messages: 677
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
That sounds kinda, out there, John.
I sure dont know what the hidden agenda is but I sure hope there is one. The reasons the shrub has been blathering about like world peace with out sadam, terrorist and of course the immortal cry, 'weapons of mass destruction' is all just lies.
The dollar being weak against the euro has been very good for american business that I can see. We are able to export tons of merchandise since other countries now have greater buying power. The business people I know in Europe are not happy the dollar is weak.
who knows what goes on behind the scene.


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