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Truth from fiction [message #54413 is a reply to message #54407] Mon, 15 August 2005 11:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18793
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

You were right to bring up the point of the Nazi propoganda machine. They are a great example, because their fabrications were so exaggerated it made the falsehoods easy to see. It is also interesting to me, though, how easy it was for them to sell to their population. But it wasn't the Nazi's fascination with spiritual or occult matters that troubled me so much as their propensity to distort facts, to fabricate stories and try to rewrite history. That's the part that's disturbing.

I think the texts found at Qumran are very interesting. That's one thing, and the false histories like the Priory of Sion are another. One is historical fact, the other a fabrication. I just think the facts are interesting enough without resorting to some sort of embellishment or fabrication, like to buttress the story or something.

The texts such as the Gospel of Philip are an excellent example. It says that there existed a special relationship between Jesus of Nazareth and Mary of Magdala. I think it is natural that maybe when Jesus was walking through Magdala, they may have caught each other's eyes and been more than friends. One can only speculate, but with what is written in some of the texts found in Qumran, it would seem highly plausible.

If the truth is they were romantically involved, I don't see why that should be viewed as bad or heretical. If that is the truth, it's just like the Copernican model of the solar system - A surprise to those who thought otherwise but not something I would think should be threatening to any religious belief system.

But one can say all of this without any embellishment at all. The Priory of Sion fabrication isn't required in order to make the hypothesis that maybe Mary had a child. The study of actual writings of the day is more interesting than the fraud. So I guess I'm just wondering outloud, why did they do it?

That's my point here. There are accounts in actual writings of the era that make some startling revelations. Some of the Gnostic texts are very interesting, and while the early church found them heretical, I'm not sure they should have been. To tell the truth, I can't help but wonder if the Council of Carthage didn't put a lot of spin on things when they chose what should be cannonized and what wasn't. But it doesn't make it any better to spin things further in modern times, fabricating things to make a case.

Truth is truth. If you want to learn how to build an airplane, you must first understand the laws of physics, of gravity and aerodynamics. Alchemy doesn't do much good, neither does sorcery or any other hodge-podge pseudo-science. Then again, from the view of a person in 1000 AD, the flight would most certainly be seen as sorcery. Still, the thing is that truth is truth. The Nazis didn't lose the war because they were incapable, in fact, they were alarmingly capable. They lost the war because they constantly lied to themselves.

That's the whole point I'm trying to make. Not whether Gnostic teachings are right or wrong, not whether science is a religion or religion is a science, not whether there are secret truths in the books at Nag Hammadi. My point is that when people put spin on stuff, it's often the spin that is remembered more than the facts. Then you have years, sometimes decades or even centuries that the public memory is infected with a lie. Even if it isn't an intentional deception, and instead is just an entertaining story, sometimes the ideas interwoven in the public mind are as irrational as a flat earth where ships fall off if they get too near the edge.


Re: Truth from fiction [message #54417 is a reply to message #54413] Mon, 15 August 2005 12:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Where I disagree is this; the German people were not Nazi's. The Nazi's were a political organisation that came to power as a result of the treaty of Versailles which mandated the surrender of much of the German lands and ability to produce the means of survival. The people were left with no way to manufacture or produce goods and as such became poverty stricken. Their reaction was to enable a hardcore fascist regime to be appointed that promised to rectify these injustices. They shouted "Deutschland Uber Alles" and created a mighty army to take back what was theirs. Unfortunatelly at times like these men with meagre souls and bitter hatreds; supported and manipulated by powerfull and wealthy iconoclasts seeking wealth and fortune gain power because only the most extreme view is able to act quickly and efficiently and when a man feels wronged he will fight to get even. So against the will of the majority of right thinking Germans they put an idiot inpower; someone who spoke simply and firmly about Germanies place in the world and how eachn German must stand up and support the country regardless of whether they did right or wrong.
And If you questioned their logic they questioned your patriotism; you were not a good citizen and did not support your country if you protested against the political power of the party.
Therefor the good Germans shut up due to fear of seeming not to support and defend their country. Soon the SS made it a condition of living; that you swear allegience to the Fuehrer and march to the mass meetings to hear a nitwit shout nonsense. The intelligent Germans faded into the background because they were men of thought and the party wanted men of action.
This is a long story but very true and accurate.

Re: Truth from fiction [message #54418 is a reply to message #54417] Mon, 15 August 2005 12:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18793
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Absolutely, not all Germans agreed with Nazis. Not everyone in Afganistan agreed with the Taliban. All Russians were not Communist. But the fact is that propoganda is very powerful, and it has a huge influence on the public mindset.

When people are told that their government is doing something for the greater good, most want to believe it, especially if they were already sympathetic or at least neutral to the party in power. If they say that they have newly discovered facts that indicate their history is impressive, people want to believe. If they portray themelves as fair-minded, powerful, attractive and charismatic, they want to believe that too. So my point is that propoganda is extremely powerful, because most people cannot verify the facts that are spoon fed to them by the mass media.


Re: Truth from fiction [message #54420 is a reply to message #54418] Mon, 15 August 2005 13:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Good discussion. In the case of the Germans they wanted to believe the rantings of Hitler because he promised them a way out of their shame. So was it the skill and power of the propogandists; or was it a preconcieved set of needs exposed by political oratory. The people wanted this sense of empowerment badly and as a consequence would have sought to believe anything good about themselves. That doesn't require much skill in manipulation when you have an audience of people desperate to believe your message. They were already convinced and willing to accept before he even opened his mouth.
So where is the power of persuasion?

Text`n gospels [message #54424 is a reply to message #54413] Mon, 15 August 2005 13:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Damir is currently offline  Damir
Messages: 1005
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (2nd Degree)
Well, IMO - those texts are nothing more then propaganda of one group/sect, almost 2000 years ago. Being old, it doesn`t mean that they are true. For me, the most interesting is so called "Gospel of Thomas". Many stories from the New Testament are there, expressed little differently, with some unknown details. And there are some fascinating, unknown stuff. But, there are some Gnostic stuff, too. Probably, it is the "collection" of some Christian group, probably little "shaped" through their "attitude"...

Re: Text`n gospels [message #54425 is a reply to message #54424] Mon, 15 August 2005 13:55 Go to previous message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18793
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

You may not agree with the texts, but they are historical and they are authentic. They aren't a fabrication like the Priory of Sion documents, and that's my point. The Nag Hammadi texts are enigmatic all by themselves.


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