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Re: Here's a thought [message #54278 is a reply to message #54276] Tue, 10 May 2005 18:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
AK; Hello; Is that true? I am not sure I follow you here. If that were so, why not find the speaker that sells the most units; define that speakers metric through testing , then build all speakers utilising that metric? You could corner the market in loudspeakers.
I thought the concept that all loudspeakers that measure the same sound the same was a dead issue by now.
I have to ask; are you saying that the human ear is less sensitive to airborne vibration than a microphone? And that the brain has less power to resolve data than an oscilliscope? Correct me if this is wrong.
I'm sorry; I know your putting me on and I appreciate your sense of humor believe me. One thing audio definately needs is a sense of humor.

Re:absolute and incontrovertible [message #54279 is a reply to message #54272] Tue, 10 May 2005 18:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike.e is currently offline  Mike.e
Messages: 471
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
One things for sure,I trust AB blind testing rather than sighted tests !

Thats the funny thing,its so logical for a magazine based on profit to encourage spending more and more,and more in order to get a 'better sound'

Note that the guys who make the best reviewed speakers in stereophile like Dunlavy audio labs,they firstly use measurements to see if a system is good,then they listen if it measures well

Re: Here's a thought [message #54280 is a reply to message #54278] Tue, 10 May 2005 22:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18793
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Since we hear things logarithmically, we don't hear subtle differences in levels. For example, you have to double power to get a 3dB increase, which sounds like a small change to us. A 10% increase is 0.5dB, and that's just too small to hear. But 10% is pretty significant, really, and is easy to measure. Budget equipment is not always accurate because it isn't calibrated, but it will surely show a 10% change in levels. But man, is it hard to hear a change in levels that get much below 3dB (200%) unless you're quickly changing between the two and listening closely.


Re: Here's a thought [message #54281 is a reply to message #54280] Wed, 11 May 2005 07:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
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Illuminati (3rd Degree)
Same thing with distortion: hard to discern, but much much easier to measure.
-akhilesh

Re: Here's a thought [message #54282 is a reply to message #54280] Wed, 11 May 2005 07:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Thats a fact. Level matching would be a priority in any test for audio.
I think there exists; within the incredibly complicated, poorly understood capacities of the brain; the ability to resolve and detect nuances of sensory input that our very crude and simple measuring devices cannot detect.
There are aspects of testing that focus on certain pieces of the experience and enhance those artifacts to coincide with the testing modality; which is arranged to help define the outcome.
We make predictions that re-inforce our original postulates then assign values to the outcome.
Then some poor unsuspecting music lover comes along; who is unaware of this and says hey I really like the sound of my NONABX brand speakers, they let me hear the music; unlike those other ones in your test.
Well; then by definition he is deluded and a sucker.
And we still can't get around the logic; if things measure the same then they must sound the same. We know; we know that isn't true. So, now what?
We convince ourselves there is no difference between amps that measure well and ressurect Julian Hirsch as an audio god.
Meanwhile isolated Japanese guys listen to Western Electric gear; and when you enter their home; your amazed at what music you have been missing all this time with Perfect Sound Forever.

Re: Here's a thought [message #54283 is a reply to message #54281] Wed, 11 May 2005 10:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
If it is hard to discern; why do we care? If we can't hear it Then everything should sound fine.

Here's another thought [message #54284 is a reply to message #54283] Wed, 11 May 2005 12:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
Messages: 1275
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
Consider this:
Most electronic equipment today that is engineered by competent engineers (and that includes most of the mass market stuff) offers perfect fidelity as far as the human ear is concerned.

Some audiophiles (SET lovers) find this perfect signal reproduction not as appealing as SETs, in other words these audiophiles (myself included) LIKE the audible second order distortion introduced by SETs, as well as the non-flat frequency curves. To these people, regular equipment (which is perfectly well engineered) begins to sound "thin" or "metallic" becuase it lacks the "richness" and "naturalness" of SETs.

Now extend this thought to analog sound versus digital sound (digital sound offers far more signal fidelity than home analog reproduction). Same logic. Some audiophiles (not me) actually PREFER the audible distortions introduced by analog reporoduction.

Are all these audiophiles delusional? Not at all! They prefer something that is not true to the original, and that's fine! I don't really care that my 45 SET amp stinks in terms of measurements, or that an engineer who designed and built it today for any mass market company would be fired on the spot...i still love listening to it in the upper bass - midrange-lower treble.

But to expect all the engineers of this world to start deliberately introducing distortion and uneven freq curves just becuase a few of us like it is unreasonable, don't you think? And criticizing the equipment they make is also somewhat unfair, since all they are doing is designing perfectly competent amps & digital sources for as low a cost as possible. And finally, expecting everyone to have the same preference as I do or you do may also be somewhat unreasonable, since we all differ in our likes.

SO bottom line, it's probably wise to just chill out, spend less time wondering why the heck the rest of the world can't enjoy the same distortions & aberrations we do, and just enjoy the music.

Don't you think?
-akhilesh



Re: Here's another thought [message #54285 is a reply to message #54284] Wed, 11 May 2005 13:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
AK; I knew I could count on you to follow this through. We are attempting to provide the absolute best possible musical experience we can and that's why we do this; right?
It doesn't matter that good engineers build mass market equipment that measures well; they have been doing that for 40 yrs.
However; there is something better out there and we try to get it. If I follow your logic; then we are done; it's over. The vanishingly low distortion and perfect freq. response graphs mean the mass market stuff sounds as good as it gets.
So why are we not out fishing?
There is a component of music that is not being measured with the crude devices we are using; that explains why music sounds different than hi-fi. If hi-fi sounded exactly like music; that would be easy to prove; have the Symphony lip-synch the music while a stereo of enough power plays at Carnegie Hall. Saves a ton of money.
Analogy; here in NY it can be 98% humidity/70o's/and low Barometric pressure. Does that tell you if it's raining? Does it tell you if it is a nice day? I know it's a crude analogy but it is all I could come up with.
Also; I don't take this personal; I like you guys.
No one is building anything now so this kills the time.
Unless you want me to post pictures of my house and every piece of gear I own?
Yawn.

Re: Here's another thought [message #54286 is a reply to message #54285] Wed, 11 May 2005 14:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
Messages: 1275
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
"The vanishingly low distortion and perfect freq. response graphs mean the mass market stuff sounds as good as it gets."

John, thanks for your reply. My point was, that perfect measurements don't sound good to many of us. We are both saying the same thing: you are saying that measurements don;t tell the story, and I am saying the same thing, i.e. measuremrnts don't predict how it will sound!

All measurement do is predict fidelity to the original signal, not how good it will sound to you or me. I think we are in agreement!
-akhilesh




Re: Here's another thought [message #54287 is a reply to message #54286] Wed, 11 May 2005 15:56 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Wheew! Thats a load off my mind. The only reason I pursue this is I just can't understand how there can be such a discrepancy between what constitutes good sound for one person and not another. You would think there would be at least some basis upon which to define why there is a difference. You hear what sounds real to you while someone else finds that same sound to be unacceptable. How can it be.
This was brought home to me when I auditioned the Decware SD speaker. How can anyone say that plays music? It only sounds good on one type of music and abysmal on everything else.
Now I have to examine this; so I am going to investigate building Martin's T-Line for the Lowthers. What do you think. I am only doing this as a result of his reasonable and methodical treatment of the subject. How about it; any opinions?

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