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America's Fuel Program [message #54227] Mon, 04 April 2005 06:12 Go to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18793
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Remember the space program in the 60's? We went from bottle rockets to landing a man on the moon in a decade. I wonder if we put the same sort of obsessive determination into alternative fuels, if we couldn't get this thing solved in a decade too.

I'd love to see heavy research in synthetic fuels and other alternative sources. At sixty bucks a barrel of oil and two and a half bucks a gallon for gasoline, I think if any canidate announces they'll support something like this, I'd vote no matter what party he's in. I know the Europeans are living with much higher fuel prices, like seven bucks a gallon gasoline, but I'm confident if we can put a man on the moon, we can develop inexpensive agri-biodiesel and alcohol fuels as well as other alternative sources.

So when the time comes, I'm placing my vote in the party that makes energy priority one for the next decade. While voting, I'd also like to see a stop to all the minutia, seems that's all America's political discussion focuses on these days. Everyone is so concerned about their "rights" - Right to life (or death), right to sex partners, right to pray in public or stop someone else from same, yada, yada, yada. Seems we've forgotten that laws of physics supercede judicially mandated "rights." If you don't have fuel, it doesn't really matter what the judge or the Congress says. You're done, time to learn how to go back to being a hunter/gatherer.


Re: America's Fuel Program [message #54228 is a reply to message #54227] Mon, 04 April 2005 10:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
So Wayne; human right's just aren't that important when it comes to cheap fuel eh?

Re: America's Fuel Program [message #54229 is a reply to message #54228] Mon, 04 April 2005 10:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18793
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Not when you drive a car with an 8 liter engine.

Seriously, I'd love to see us embark on an energy research program in this country on the scale of the space program in the 60's. I think it would be great, and I think it's time.


Re: America's Fuel Program [message #54230 is a reply to message #54229] Mon, 04 April 2005 11:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
In the 60's we were worried about Sputnik so ergo we found all kinds of money. Now it's about profit and there is plenty to be made when the price of oil exceeds the cost of refining naturel gas reserves in the national parks. Then Haliburton and Dick Cheney's gang will be whipped into action raping the public land for personal profit and citing national emergency as the reason.
There's no money in conservation.
And I will still drive my V-8; if you want to play you have to pay!

Re: America's Fuel Program [message #54231 is a reply to message #54230] Mon, 04 April 2005 12:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18793
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Yeah, buddy. I'm keeping my V8's too. I don't drive them as much, but it really isn't too bad. I have a motorcycle and the climate here is good, so it balances out.


Re: America's Fuel Program [message #54232 is a reply to message #54231] Mon, 04 April 2005 13:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Thats the ticket! Move where it is 75 deg. year round, cheap housing, low insurance and no need for a car; lets see; Far Tortuga? The Lesser Antilles?

Re: relocating [message #54233 is a reply to message #54232] Mon, 04 April 2005 19:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wunhuanglo is currently offline  wunhuanglo
Messages: 912
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (2nd Degree)
My bet is that moving will be the answer for a lot of people long before alternative energy sources are developed commercially.

Middle class people will return to the cities - there's a lot of unused room in every major city I've visited - abandoned apartment houses and single family dwellings - in cities like NY these abandoned units are cheek by jowl to some of the highest rent living space in the world. People will abandon commuting in favor of rehabilitating this housing stock.

We have ever increasing numbers of people and not a hell of a lot of arable land that’s not in use. Much prime farm land has been turned into suburban sprawl. I think this makes bio-fuels not too likely, at least in the long term – we need the land for food production.

Hydrogen is a long way off – you need to put as much into hydrolysis as you can get out of a fuel cell, so all we can practically do is make nuclear power portable – we have to build a lot of big nuclear plants to disassociate water, and that means not only huge investment but solving what’s been an intractable problem for the past 25 years – what do you do with the spent fuel. Money can address those issues, but gasoline will have to be hellaciously expensive before hydrogen from nuclear plants looks good.

Long term, I have to believe our future is being lived today in Japan – rural farmers who never see the city – city dwellers who only see the country by public transportation – rare and expensive private vehicle ownership – incredibly high concentrations of people in the urban centers, making commuting by public transportation feasible.

Oh, yeah, one other thing – drinking to a near stupor every night while smoking 2 packs a day to deal with the stress of it all.

Re: America's Fuel Program [message #54234 is a reply to message #54227] Mon, 04 April 2005 21:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dean Kukral is currently offline  Dean Kukral
Messages: 177
Registered: May 2009
Master
Back in the late 70's when we were having the "gas crisis" (remember when prices shot up to 79 cents a gallon?), it drove me crazy. All the polls ranked the "economy" as the number one issue and "oil" in third place. People simply did not (and still do not) appreciate the fact that cheap oil along with plentiful natural resources and lax regulatory laws are what made this country rich.

One of the first things Carter did was cut back research money on atomic energy. Yikes!!! (BTW, in 1980 I voted for Anderson who wanted to tax gasoline 50 cents a gallon to pay for Social Security. If he had been elected and put that program into effect, we would be a lot better off today.)

Agreeing with you on this point, I said back then and still say that we should have a program attacking nuclear fusion with at least the same effort that we put into the space program.

The first country that is able to effectively harness nuclear fusion is going to dominate the world for years - if it can keep its technology a secret, which is getting pretty difficult in today's world.

I don't see any other source of energy that could satisfy our needs, although coal has been touted for years. Maybe it could provide an interim solution. Anti-pollution technology would have to be developed.

Re: America's Fuel Program [message #54235 is a reply to message #54234] Tue, 05 April 2005 03:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18793
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I agree with you. Nuclear energy is an awesome technology, if you think about it. It's the fuel of the stars, of the universe. Put research into the matters of safety and waste disposal and I think that's the way to go for energy for homes and businesses.

Seems like I remember hearing that some types of reactors produce byproducts with relatively short half lives. Instead of having canisters that won't become safe for a zillion years, they are radioactive for a dozen or two years, something like that. So that's attractive. Or maybe launch the stuff into the sun or something like that for disposal.

Nuclear power brings up a fear factor, but I also know that it's a good technology. Just like anything else, life is dangerous. I think it's worth re-examining. Submarines use nuclear power and people are living in close quarters with the reactor. So that's something. Chernobyl was a piece of junk, but the Ukrainians need the power enough that they band-aid it together. Pretty nuts, but the point is that energy is necessary for modern life and when you get down to nut cutting, you're prepared to make certain choices. People react much differently when faced with survival than they do when looking for luxury.

So I'm thinking we're getting close to nut cutting. All my life, we've been talking about the sky is falling where energy is concerened. But then it didn't and we all sort of lulled ourselves back into complacency. I'm thinking that there's no need for doom and gloom scares, but maybe just the economic situation might get us on the ball. I'd just like to see an all-out fuel program on the table, with zeal like we saw in the days of the Apollo missions.


Re: relocating [message #54236 is a reply to message #54233] Tue, 05 April 2005 03:57 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18793
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

You're right about suburbia and commuting to work. That's one thing that you don't find as much in other countries. That sort of goes in the category of energy conservation. So does the idea of making homes and businesses with energy conservation in mind. Stuff like venting the heat from the refridgerator outside instead of into the living area where it must be re-cooled by the air conditioner. I may run computers and tube amps that throw off a lot of heat, but I don't have to run my heater nearly as much in the winter.


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