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Re: Now with measurements. [message #51858 is a reply to message #51856] Wed, 27 February 2008 12:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18783
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Good stuff, Ken. The peaking you're seeing is what we want, but there is a little bit too much of it. If you load a crossover designed for 8Ω with 12Ω or so, this is what you'll see - A small peak near the crossover frequency. This is slightly underdamped, and we use it to boost the bottom end.

The idea isn't to cover a hole from the midhorn or any other driver, it's to make the first octave flat when a bypassed attenuator is used to increase HF. If you added HF-bypassed padding like that withgout slightly underdamping the crossover, the resulting curve would be a diagonal line starting at the crossover frequency and rising straight away. We don't want output to start rising for an octave, so we peak the bottom of the curve just a smidge, in order to provide a response curve like shown below:

Like you, I designed the circuit with Spice. It allowed me to model the compression driver/horn with voice coil resistance/inductance and a series of resonators. I was able to make a very good model that gave accurate results. But by including actual impedance measurements of the driver, I've been able to get even just a little bit closer.

I found the same thing you did, that my crossovers had a smidge more peaking than I wanted. Your chart is very close to what I've seen. It isn't objectionable, but I changed values as a result. Reducing C2 a little and increasing the size of L1 made an improvement.

I'm not concerned about shifting the -6dB frequency by a couple hundred Hertz, in fact, the crossover has always been asymmetrical anyway. They're sloped filters, not brick wall filters, so in-band and out-of-band signals are separated by a relatively large overlap region. That's a grey area, so to speak, in that acoustic summing between drivers is in play, not just electrical slopes. Even if it appears that one crossover point is a few hundred Hertz different than the other, the only thing that matters is that summing results in a nice flat response curve. That's where the rubber hits the road, so to speak.


Spice rules ;-) [message #51859 is a reply to message #51858] Wed, 27 February 2008 14:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kim Schultz is currently offline  Kim Schultz
Messages: 85
Registered: May 2009
Viscount
Hi Wayne.

I have downloaded your .zma files, but where do I put them in the Spice dir. ?

When I try to do a simulation I get this error:

Circuit: ! Seven Pi mid/tweeter crossover Spice model
Error on line 34 : z1 1 0 h290_psd2002.zma 0 0
unable to find definition of model 0 - default assumed
error: no unlabeled parameter permitted on mesfet
Error on line 62 : z2 7 0 sevenpi_midhorn.zma 0 0
unable to find definition of model 0 - default assumed
error: no unlabeled parameter permitted on mesfet

And how do you make the phase simulation you talk about in your crossover white paper ?'

Regards
Kim

Re: Spice rules ;-) [message #51860 is a reply to message #51859] Wed, 27 February 2008 14:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18783
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

You'll actually have to use Keith Larson's WTpro/ST to incorporate ZMA files into Spice.

You can calculate electrical phase with vectors. Here's a write up of the process, with real-world examples and models in Spice:


Re: Spice rules ;-) [message #51861 is a reply to message #51860] Wed, 27 February 2008 15:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kim Schultz is currently offline  Kim Schultz
Messages: 85
Registered: May 2009
Viscount
Thx, will look into that phase thing tomorrow.

Can you give me the new component values for the crossover, then I´ll try it out and make some new measurements tomorrow.

What is the sonic difference between the old and the new crossover ?

Re: Spice rules ;-) [message #51862 is a reply to message #51861] Wed, 27 February 2008 18:49 Go to previous message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18783
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

The difference is subtle. I did WTPro/ST models of various configurations and tested them. After I narrowed down to a few, I built actual physical models. As I said, the differences were subtle but definitely audible. I like the crossover shown below the best for the three π and four π speakers. I'll revisit other models as I have time and since all models with compression drivers have the same tweeter circuit, I expect that part will carry over.

Frankly, I've walked this road before (or one very much like it) when I made the versions of the crossovers I've been using the past few years. I made first, second and third-order crossovers, with various amounts of attenuation and HF compensation for the tweeter. First was a Spice model, then an actual physical model.

This time around, I did the same thing but I also added fourth-order networks. I had a little better visibility both because of the use of ZMA files and also because my acoustic measuring equipment is better. That's how I found a few small tweaks in the tweeter circuit that made a slightly better response curve. Decrease the value for C2 down to 6.8uF and increase L1 to 1.0mH. I also tried different slopes for each driver. I liked the 2nd/3rd arrangement and the pseudo-first-order circuit, but I liked the 3rd/3rd better. Going to 4th/3rd was too much. I also found that the Zobels didn't need to be as large as I was using. Although the difference is marginal, large capacitors are expensive (especially when using premium brands) so the smaller, the better. In the end, after lots of tests and listening sessions, the crossover I liked best is this:

http://www.pispeakers.com/fourPi_schematic.gif
four π crossover

http://www.pispeakers.com/Pi_Crossover_PCB.gif
π crossover PCB


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