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Paper-in-oil capacitors [message #4957] Thu, 31 July 2008 17:36 Go to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18786
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I just replaced some paper-in-oil capacitors in my Audio Note amplifier. It had been blowing fuses and even took out a power transformer, so I decided to investigate. What I found was the left side power tube was biased on strongly, developing a large voltage across the cathode resistor. The first thing I checked was the coupling caps, in fact, I simply replaced them instead of lifting them to see if that would change the bias point. Looking at the schematic, I was pretty confident that was the likely canidate, and sure enough, it was.

I've grown to expect old capacitors in 1940's tube radios are usually bad, so I replace them right off the bat. But I guess I kind of expected modern paper-in-oil caps would last a little longer. Is that not the case? Do they all tend to dry up and become resistors? That's what happened here, the dielectric began to break down, and the plate-to-plate resistance dropped, allowing more and more DC current to flow. Is this the case with all paper-in-oil caps? Mine only lasted five years.


Re: Paper-in-oil capacitors [message #4958 is a reply to message #4957] Fri, 01 August 2008 14:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skip_Pack is currently offline  Skip_Pack
Messages: 18
Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
Wayne,

This is from dim memory (at least a day or two old), and high on rumor
quotient, but I think someone mentioned that AN labeled PIO caps were,
at least some of the time from Jensen and not long-lived. Others last a
long time.

Skip

Re: Paper-in-oil capacitors [message #4959 is a reply to message #4958] Fri, 01 August 2008 22:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18786
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I seem to recall Peter Qvortrup saying the Audio Note PIO caps used to be relabeled Jensens but a long time ago they started making their own.

However, this is still good information. I'll try some new PIO caps and see how they last.


Re: Paper-in-oil capacitors [message #4960 is a reply to message #4959] Sat, 02 August 2008 00:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Norris Wilson is currently offline  Norris Wilson
Messages: 361
Registered: May 2009
Grand Master
The best way to eliminate this problem in the future is to substitute oil coupling caps with Mundorf Supreme film.

Norris

Re: Paper-in-oil capacitors [message #4961 is a reply to message #4960] Sat, 02 August 2008 14:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18786
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I'll try those. I'm using Audiocaps now, and I've used probably a dozen different brands and types with varying success. But I haven't tried the Mundorf caps yet, so I'll order some next week and give 'em a try.


Re:Mundorf Supreme [message #4963 is a reply to message #4961] Fri, 08 August 2008 20:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Epstein is currently offline  Bill Epstein
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Registered: May 2009
Location: Smoky Mts. USA
Illuminati (2nd Degree)
I tried a pair of .33s in my attenuation circuit; thought they sounded grainy and cold compared to the Auricaps they briefly replaced.

Kimbers were an improvement over the Auricaps, slightly, and the copper case Obbligatos take home the prize.

Re:Mundorf Supreme [message #4964 is a reply to message #4963] Sun, 10 August 2008 19:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18786
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I've used Kimbers in a lot of places, and I agree with you, they're good. Where do you get your Obbligato caps, Bill? I got the Mundorfs last week, so I'll give 'em a try as soon as I get a chance but I'd love to try Obbligatos too.


Re:The one, the only..... [message #4965 is a reply to message #4964] Sun, 10 August 2008 23:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Epstein is currently offline  Bill Epstein
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Registered: May 2009
Location: Smoky Mts. USA
Illuminati (2nd Degree)
...Brian Cherry.

Re:The one, the only..... [message #4966 is a reply to message #4965] Mon, 11 August 2008 11:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18786
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

But of course. I should have known that. Brian's a great guy. I'll place an order and give Obbligatos a try.


Re: Paper-in-oil capacitors [message #4980 is a reply to message #4957] Thu, 16 October 2008 23:36 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
footsurg is currently offline  footsurg
Messages: 21
Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
Wayne,

I have had quite a few of those Audio Note copper PIO's short out in my gear too. Peter Q over at AN has admitted that there are some issues with those caps. The film that separates the dielectric is the problem. It breaks down eventually causing the cap to short out. Peter has redesigned the copper PIO's using a mylar divider that is supposed to be good for a long long time. Peter has agreed to take back any shorted out copper PIO's and exchange them for the new mylar coppers free of charge no questions asked. I know you have coppers in that kit 2, because I put them in myself. The coppers really are what sounds best in that amp, I would take Peter up on his offer to exchange the shorted ones. The new ones will have white lettering on them. the old ones had black. Also I would check all the coupling caps and cathode bypass caps in there. You should get no more than a few volts across any of the signal caps. If you're getting high readings like in the 80+ volt range, then they are getting ready to go. Replace any that you find like that immediately.

Mark

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