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Re: 12π and 15π horn loudspeakers [message #45760 is a reply to message #45732] Mon, 08 November 2004 05:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jake is currently offline  jake
Messages: 8
Registered: May 2009
Esquire
Most of the restoring force applied to the diaphragm in the Labsub is because of the air spring and not the spider / suspension of the drive unit, therefore turning one drive unit around should make a minimal difference to the linearity and therefore the distortion produced. Turning one drive unit around and running it reverse phase in a vented cabinet is a completely different matter as the greater restoring force comes from the drivers suspension which is often non linear especially at peak excursion.
Turning both the drive units around and placing the heat sinks in the throat should keep the units cooler and therefore increase power handling also.
Methods to reduce harmonic distortion in the horn include reducing the acoustic bandwidth of the horn by changing the throat chamber tuning and by reducing the compression ratio at the throat.


Re: 12π and 15π horn loudspeakers [message #45761 is a reply to message #45759] Mon, 08 November 2004 09:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Larry Acklin is currently offline  Larry Acklin
Messages: 54
Registered: May 2009
Baron
Hi Wayne et all:

Been following this one with great interest, since i've been using folded horn subs for PA for a while. Wayne, look at www.stage-accompany.com and look how they have employed forced air cooling into the performer series. ("Air system").

Basic form is a fan, and a speed controller that reacts to averages of progam levels- then adjusts speed of the fan to the conditions.

Also remember that most PA subs are not being used at below 40-45 hz.

Nothing down there, too much potential for sstage rumble, or runaway subsonic feedback, etc. Some systems don't operate below 60 hz.

Larry Acklin

Re: 12π and 15π horn loudspeakers [message #45763 is a reply to message #45760] Mon, 08 November 2004 13:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18787
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

You are right that the rear chamber in the LABhorn is very small, and the air behind it plays a significant role. Another way of looking at it is the small sealed chamber shifts the resonant frequency so that motor chamber resonance is in the passband of the horn. It is set to create a peak at lower cutoff which augments output. This is sometimes called reactance annulling.

However, what is significant about this new horn is the push-pull plenum, which counteracts motor asymmetry. There is nothing in the LABhorn design that deals with this. It is well-known that the cause for harmonic distortion is primarily due to asymmetries in the motor assembly, not the mechanical suspension or pneumatic loading. That is why shorting rings are used in low-distortion drivers - They counteract the major cause of asymmetry, which is flux modulation. Another way to counteract it is the push-pull plenum arrangent.

There are many things a horn does that reduce distortion, but it cannot address flux modulation. There is no mechanism to restore symmetry. Horns reduce excursion and reduce bandwidth, both of which reduce distortion components. But asymmetry is not reduced by horn loading, so the push-pull plenum has been added to address this. If a woofer with a sufficiently large shorting ring were used, that would do it too.


Re: 12π and 15π horn loudspeakers [message #45764 is a reply to message #45761] Mon, 08 November 2004 13:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18787
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I'm looking around on that site now, and having a hard time finding the link. Can you tell me where to find it on their site?


Re: 12π and 15π horn loudspeakers [message #45769 is a reply to message #45732] Mon, 08 November 2004 21:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adrian Mack is currently offline  Adrian Mack
Messages: 568
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
Nice horn Wayne! I wonder if that plenum is a little large to gain complete effects of push/pull loading.

How long is the pathway and mouth area? Got any Hornresp response predictions of this horn?

The pathway is interesting, I've not seen a horn before that has the pathway split off into two directions. Is it the same as having one pathway with double the area/volume?

Re: 12π and 15π horn loudspeakers [message #45771 is a reply to message #45769] Mon, 08 November 2004 22:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18787
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

These horns are still conceptual, and I have some issues to deal with. But I am committed to doing them because I am confident they'll provide performance improvements over existing designs. The folding pattern I've chosen for illustration is actually a pretty common "W" fold. It was easiest to show what I was talking about with this picture, but I'm not necessarily set on using it. One benefit is that if I duct cooling air to the outside, the motor chamber is at the rear of the cabinet so the ducts can be easily run to the rear. But I could also use a "Z" fold or a spiral.

The main thing I'm sure of is that the push-pull plenum decreases distortion and that fresh, cool air to the voice coils will do a better job of keeping 'em cool than trapped air in a very small rear chamber. Now I have to do some exploration to find the best ways to exploit these improvements.


Re: 12π and 15π horn loudspeakers [message #45772 is a reply to message #45771] Mon, 08 November 2004 22:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adrian Mack is currently offline  Adrian Mack
Messages: 568
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
Hey Wayne

Im sure the push/pull config will reduce distortion - John Sheerin did something similar in a dual 10" CSX basshorn, and noted very good improvements in 2nd HD.

Ducting to get cool air from the outside - reminds me of the cold air intake/induction system I put on my car made from 90mm piping :P If you were to do the ducting on the vented pole piece, I think make the piping larger than the vent itself so that the airflow doesnt cause a restriction and start creating noise and air pressure buildup of its own, which would mean more distortion.

Adrian

Re: 12π and 15π horn loudspeakers [message #45773 is a reply to message #45772] Mon, 08 November 2004 23:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18787
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

That's right. Dennis (DJK) and John (str8aro) and I have discussed push-pull systems in the past. John has made measurements that confirm the reduction of second harmonics using this configuration. About the cooling duct, I'm with you on that. It seems like motorheads are the first to embrace the idea. I was thinking of car stuff too when I first pictured ducting the vents. Thomas (ToFo) has proposed a dual-port anti-reversion venting system to prevent a warm air slug from travelling back and forth in the cooling duct. It has a cool air input line and a warm air exit line, each with an AR orifice to polarize flow in the proper direction. That or do something to conduct heat away within a single duct and dissipate it along the way. Perhaps introduce turbulence to get the air in contact with a large, cool surface area.


Re: 12π and 15π horn loudspeakers [message #45777 is a reply to message #45764] Tue, 09 November 2004 13:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Larry Acklin is currently offline  Larry Acklin
Messages: 54
Registered: May 2009
Baron
Hi Wayne-

When you go to the site, click on the SA logo. Go to the performer series, scroll down and click on the air system logo.


Basic info there, and lots of good info in the PDF stuff. I saw a design (beta) where the woofer and mids also had air plenums and cooling.

Dimension that box you are looking at for Delta 15's and you got a winner.


Larry

Re: 12π and 15π horn loudspeakers [message #45829 is a reply to message #45763] Fri, 19 November 2004 04:22 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
jake is currently offline  jake
Messages: 8
Registered: May 2009
Esquire
Please let me first say that I am all for trying to improve on the Lab Sub and am simply playing devils advocate.
As far as I am aware the main cause of second harmonic distortion created by magnet structures is due to asymmetries in the magnetic field either side of the gap and therefore is not going to be addressed by a shorting ring which is usually used for reducing third harmonic distortion.
Also the ear tends to be very insensitive to harmonic distortion at low frequencies and as the main second harmonic artefacts are going to be produced when the driver is working at the lowest frequencies of its passband then the main area of second harmonics are going to be in the 60-80Hz region and thirds higher again.
By limiting the high frequency output to the horn acoustically by designing the throat chamber/throat area to have a cutoff frequency equal to your electrical cutoff frequency then you will minimize the second and third harmonics in the next driver’s passband.
Two of the main areas of weakness in the Labsub seem to be dust caps detaching and heat problems, the former likely caused by the pressure on the rear of the dome due to the small rear chamber and hence high pressures and the latter through trying to dissipate upwards 200watts of heat in a very small insulated space.
I therefore think that if you could get both drivers magnet structures in the throat chamber this would greatly decrease the forces acting on the dome and also reduce thermal stresses leading to reduced power compression giving a useful long-term gain in acoustic output.
Putting one drivers magnet assembly in a small chamber and not the other may have it's own set of linearity problems that are not encountered in the classic closed and reflex box arrangments.
Regards
Jake

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