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alternative speakers for Ten Pi [message #42225] Tue, 19 August 2003 19:22 Go to next message
bikehorn is currently offline  bikehorn
Messages: 14
Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
i don't really have the kind of cash for a JBL 2226...are there any other speakers that would work well? what about speakers specifically designed for electric bass, like the Eminence Legend B15, Fane Axiom 15. Celestion BL-15-300, or something similar? any recommendations? thanks.
Re: alternative speakers for Ten Pi [message #42226 is a reply to message #42225] Tue, 19 August 2003 19:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Martinelli is currently offline  Bill Martinelli
Messages: 677
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)

I'll take a shot and say the Eminence Omega would work well at half the price of a 2226. The peavey BW 1505's have very close specs to a 2226 and will work in the same enclosures. I like the newer 1505's that have a paper dust cover over the metal dust cover. Wayne will have some good advise too.

Bill

Re: alternative speakers for Ten Pi [message #42227 is a reply to message #42225] Tue, 19 August 2003 23:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18790
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I agree with Bill's comments - He pretty much hit it on the head. The Omega 15 sounds good in the Professional Series ten π cabinet, but the Kilomax 15 doesn't sound good at all. The combination isn't matched well, and is too boomy in the midbass. The Kilomax is an excellent driver, but it needs a much larger cabinet. And if it were to be used in a horn, the horn would have to be much larger.

There are certainly many other motors that would work well, but these are the only ones I've tried. Several people have used other JBL's, such as the 130's in Shanko's system. And there are motors from other manufacturers that would work as well. However, there are also plenty of motors that are absolutely wonderful in a bass-reflex or π cornerhorn cabinet that shouldn't be used in a portable free-standing basshorn, or at least not one of small proportions. The Eminence Delta 15 is a definite no-go, as are the other entry-level Eminence products. Adam Bird tried a Kappa 15 if I remember correctly, and I think he would characterize them as a moderate success.

If I were going to look at another driver, I'd definitely run the numbers first. What I like to see is a small peak at cutoff to help out the bottom-end response of a midbass driver. It's the exact opposite of reactance annulling - The horn becomes a resonator down low, and generates a peak that augments the lowest half-octave. A 2226 is not generating much below 60Hz without this horn on it, but with it, you get a whallop between 40Hz and 60Hz.

But that can also get you into trouble. If your choice of driver in this horn forms a combination that peaks too much, you'll have a "one-note system." You want to find a combination that provides a response curve having about a 3-5dB peak at horn cutoff and that should be below the rolloff of the motor/chamber system. The midband response curve should have a gradual negative slope free of large peaks and nulls, usable pistonic output from maybe 40Hz to 400Hz. With this sort of response curve, you have a lot of options.

You can use the subsystem through the pistonic frequency range only, as a midbass/midrange device. Of if the driver has rising response, it can be used well above this because the diagonal panels form reflectors. You'd be surprised how much vocal energy and even overtones are generated by this device.

In a home, the room is usually small enough that a single horn can be considered to be in eighth space. In an open area, you should calculate based on half-space, and then two of them in near proximity would combine to act as quarter-space. Because of this, the horn - while often used in wide open spaces - will function as though it were in quarter-space.

Anyway, the bottom line is that I'd suggest that you stick with the intended driver, or with another having very similar characteristics. If going with another speaker motor, I'd strongly encourage you to model the system before you build.

Re: alternative speakers for Ten Pi [message #42232 is a reply to message #42227] Wed, 20 August 2003 10:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline  Adam
Messages: 419
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
To follow up on Wayne's mention of my system, the Kappa 15LF's performed reasonably well in the ten pi enclosures I designed for them. Unfortunately, output (while incredibly loud) is also somewhat chesty, and just didn't have the bottom end I wanted. Additional cabinet bracing would have helped the situation a fair bit, but not enough to fully make up for the difference. As I have nothing to weigh against, I woudl say the project was a modest sucess, although not worth all the work.

Adding a subwoofer to cover the 60 Hz and below region, now wow... That was another story. Having a subwoofer to fill out the bottom octaves truly eliminated that chesty sound from the ten pi's and delivered an excellent sounding system. I'm not sure if this is typical of Wayne's horn design or improper implimentation of the woofer, but the bottom end response simply didn't do it for me. The same driver in a standard ported box, tuned to around 40 Hz was not as loud, but provided a far smoother bass and midbass sound, superior midrange characteristics and deeper response.

Adam

thanks all! [message #42238 is a reply to message #42225] Wed, 20 August 2003 17:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bikehorn is currently offline  bikehorn
Messages: 14
Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
I guess i'll go for the Peavey BW 1505 then, if its characteristics are close to the 2226. thanks again
Re: alternative speakers for Ten Pi [message #42240 is a reply to message #42226] Wed, 20 August 2003 19:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
steve f is currently offline  steve f
Messages: 238
Registered: May 2009
Master
Hi Guys,
Didn't somebody use a 15" Selenium driver in the same cabinet with success?
Steve
Re: alternative speakers for Ten Pi [message #42242 is a reply to message #42240] Wed, 20 August 2003 21:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18790
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

The Selenium 1505 has been used a lot in four π and seven π speakers, but I'm not aware of it being used in ten π's. Its characteristics make it suitable for the Professional Series four π or seven π cabinet tuning, but I've never checked it for use with a ten π. I'm not sure if anyone else has used it in a ten π, but it is a freestanding midbass horn which makes a difference.

The four π loads the driver with a bass-reflex cabinet and the seven π cornerhorn is very large conical horn, with the motor chamber incorporating a Helmholtz resonator. But the ten π is not large compared to the wavelengths it reproduces, and this is what makes it more sensitive. This is true of all portable basshorns - They're really somewhat undersized, so placement and choice of drivers becomes more important than otherwise would be the case.

Anyway, the point is that the Selenium 1505 has been used in the Professional Series four π and seven π cabinets with success, but I'm not sure whether it has been used in a ten π cabinet. It may be perfectly suited for this design, but performance in a seven π isn't complete assurance that it will work as well in a ten π, unless it is used in eighth-space. Maybe someone here has used the Selenium 1505 in a ten π horn and can confirm its suitability for this particular purpose.

Black Widow [message #42243 is a reply to message #42238] Wed, 20 August 2003 21:22 Go to previous message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18790
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I'm not sure about the Black Widows. My gut feeling is that they may be a bit midbass-heavy in this design. Please see my post to Steve on this matter; You might want to check out your options, ideally model its performance before building or maybe try out a borrowed driver that can be swapped if it doesn't work.

It is good to have a selection of suitable second-source drivers, so please post back a report of what you find if you try alternate parts.

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