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Amplifier feedback - post here [message #37670] Tue, 06 August 2002 14:57 Go to next message
Anonymous
I have a pretty good understanding of amplifiers and I can weed
thru the baloney but I'm curious on what your thoughts are
on amplifier selection for high sensitivity speaker systems
whether horn loaded or not.

I'm going to break this down into some categories.

Your thoughts on each category.

Tube amplifiers - Does it really sound better for mid to high freq?
I have no opinion.

Consumer grade amplifiers - Technics, Sony, Aiwa, JVC, etc.
Is it junk ?, I think so. Weak power supplies and output stages.

One step up from consumer grade amplifiers - Denon, Onkyo, Marantz,
Elite Pioneer, Yamaha, etc. I think this stuff should be the normal
consumer grade stuff, it's worth the money paid I think.

High-Fi/low end exotic - Parasound, ATI, Adcom, Anthem, B&K, Rotel,
etc. I think some of this stuff starts to resemble good circuit
design with beefy circuits (transformer/output stages), probably
worth the money paid.

Exotic - The field is wide open, Krell, Passlabs, Levingston,
Conrad Johnson, Bryston, Jeff Roland. blah blah blah ........ blah blah. I find it hard to justify paying $10k for 200w/ch amplifier - heheh I'm sure they are fine amplifiers, construction, circuit design, but god-aweful expensive.

Prosound - Interesting, seems to give a nice bang for the buck.
Crown, QSC, not sure about this but Cinepro, who else?
Sonically, what is wrong with using these in a home stereo ?

Esoteric - Bob Carver's Sunfire - The controversial designer
has done it again with his new innovative tracking downconverter
(patented) power supply. I read his patent and I'm amazed at the concepts.
My real issue is whether this design can power subwoofers as well
as a similar amplifier in it's class. In theory, it should outperform
many amplifiers in it's class for mid to high frequencies due to
it's high dynamic power capability (handing transients).

Re: Amplifier feedback - post here [message #37671 is a reply to message #37670] Tue, 06 August 2002 16:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BillEpstein is currently offline  BillEpstein
Messages: 886
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (2nd Degree)
There's merit to your thinking.
The first group is indeed shoddy and is characterised by flat and lifeless soundstage; shrill upper mids and highs.
While auditioning Home Theater Receivers I thought Denon belonged more to the first group, not musical and Marantz, especially sounded warmer and more musical.I'm not familiar with modern Onkyo and Yamaha but back in the eighties, both were just under the brands in your hi-fi/low end exotic: dynamic, decent imaging but still transistory.
The B&K 140 was damned fine and I believe Parasound has assumed that mantle today. Haven't heard B&K lately.
The only modern super amps I have heard are the Audio Research 200 and Classe' Omega. Wow! Wish I had that kind of money to throw around.They made a pair of von Schweikerts absolutely disappear.
All that said, I've still never heard an amp that bested the Counterpoint 220 when it wasn't smoking and the 80 and 100 were amazing, too. Ditto for the 3.1 and 5.1 pre-amps. Of the same era and still in business is Muse who make a 300 watt monoblock I haven't heard but I owned the Model 100 amp and One pre-amp. Nicely warm, musical and still solid state detailed. Beautifully done inside, too.

Which brings us to tubes. For the $$$, there is nothing else. $500 to $1000 buys 95% of what you get in the mega amplifiers except the power. Building Bottlehead or Consonance or buying Jolida or ASL; if you have hi-efficiency speakers, that's it.
And nothing under $5000 in solid state will give you the mids and highs you mentioned. In fact, the SET crowd, of which I'm a member will say only tubes at any price.
And you can certainly pay the price of a nice house for tube amplification these days!
Don't know about the Carver products but the fight with Stereophile was fun.

Re: Amplifier feedback - post here [message #37672 is a reply to message #37670] Tue, 06 August 2002 18:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mikebake is currently offline  mikebake
Messages: 243
Registered: May 2009
Grand Master
Hmmmm, maybe read this
http://www.norh.com/news.html

and then go here for an idea

I have been using/auditioning the LeAmps for about 3 weeks now. Seem pretty good. Really good, actually. I also use QSC for the low end. I am thinking of ordering their tube amp soon to add to the system, powering some Wayne-inspired quasi-4 Pi Pro series............I expect Michael Barnes stuff to sound good. Frankly, I like his approach to things. It's not totally unlike Waynes, in a way.............
MBB

Re: Amplifier feedback - post here [message #37675 is a reply to message #37670] Tue, 06 August 2002 20:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freddyi is currently offline  freddyi
Messages: 48
Registered: May 2009
Baron
with Lp's - a tube RIAA preamp using no loop feedback will generally give more realistic timbres on vocals and wind instruments than most solid state - Ernest Tubb sounds a hellva lot more alive on double mu-follower preamp with dreaded Lm-317 floating regulator PS than on PS-III - can't be much diff in RIAA eq - no line stage in either - other preamps such as Citation I w. jillion contacts, caps, and several feedback loops and unregulated supply will sound different again.

tube power amps - depends upon speaker - with sealed back chamber basshorns having low z variation, low damping factors can be "ok" - SE can sound excellent as can push-pull triode sans feedback (pp may alow better bass control w. reflex - more usable primary L) - output Z interaction is part of the result but suspect low-gain structure allowing deletion of feedback will sound "pleasing" in many instances - more 'holographic' neat 3D effect on guitars, etc - in other instances with large reflex peaks - might muddy up especially SE w. interstage where LF distortion lurks - old mod Eico ST70 running ppp 6BX7 triode w/o feedback and 6DJ8 up front were acceptable in bass with surplus Klipsch 8" in pseudo-D'Appolito Madisound offered some years back - Eico iron good to >70Kha into resistive load

consumer grade stuff vs midline vs high end solid-state . have heard extremely loud sounds from cheap 5 channel receivers running 2-channel maybe not most refined of solid-state but strong enuff to push 95dB sensitivity - @175 vs $7000?? which 'sistor to choose?


Freddy

Re: Amplifier feedback - post here [message #37676 is a reply to message #37670] Tue, 06 August 2002 20:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bmar is currently offline  bmar
Messages: 346
Registered: May 2009
Grand Master
I have recently heard a NAD c270 amp. very musical and I wouldnt say it has your tipical SS qualities. for the midline stuff I chose a Denon. not the greatest but I found it much better than my older sony es. I use it for home theater and for that purpose I cant complain and probably wont upgrade it for some time. Tube are cool! they have there own sound and I like it for dedicated small room listening. For most things I do like the crispness of the SS amps. Most tube guys would call that sound brittle (amoung other colorful metaphors)
the pro stuff is a different story. Ive had in my system, Carver, Peavey, QSC, Hafler, ART, Crown, and finally now using Mackie.
Crown is clean but I just couldnt strike the right combination, that was my problem though. Hafler was the most musical and I loved the sound, just too noisy to deal with (bummer). The Mackie's I have are very quiet and and a pleasure to have. The sound might not be for everyone. I'm going to say they have a very dry sound, studio type of sound. If its not on the recording, you arnt going to hear it. you get whats there and thats it. So I use two mackies for the low and mid, tubes for the highs, plate amps for sub cabinets under 80hz.
so with all this iron my next move is for smaller tube amps of a little better quality, and a NAD C270 to play with. If you get pro audio, the fans Suck! try and get something with no fan, or disconnect the one inside. chances are in your living room you'll never heat the thing up. (many disclaimers for modding gear.....)
That's my take. find a few places in your area that will let you try stuff out at home. home is different than the showroom.

Bill

Re: Amplifier feedback - post here [message #37677 is a reply to message #37670] Wed, 07 August 2002 00:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walt is currently offline  Walt
Messages: 16
Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
I use a Master DL-1800 amplifier to drive my basscabinets. This is a professional amplifier with a very good build in limiter which prevents the amp from dangerous clipping. One of the big advantages of a Pro-amp is the great power (Master DL-1800 = 2x900W RMS/4ohm) and the high damping ratio (this gives you a well controlled bass)

In my opinion the noise of the forced cooling is a big disadvantage. This can be rather annoying when you listen a low levels.

Best regards,

Walt

Re: Amplifier feedback - post here [message #37680 is a reply to message #37672] Wed, 07 August 2002 03:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
trancemitr is currently offline  trancemitr
Messages: 74
Registered: May 2009
Viscount
Mikebake,
I've been eyeing the LeAmps for a while. You said you use QSC for the low end, but how are the LeAmps by themselves. I've used the Bottlehead Paramours and the ASL Wave 8s, but they just don't seem to have the low end "grunt" that I'd like when I listen to electronica (no surprise). I was figuring that at $500 for the pair they might be right up my alley.

Kevin

Re: Amplifier feedback - post here [message #37681 is a reply to message #37680] Wed, 07 August 2002 03:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mikebake is currently offline  mikebake
Messages: 243
Registered: May 2009
Grand Master
I have not heard them full range but not on my system. I will do so soon and try to let you know. They have a very beefy power supply and I expect they will do well.
Re: Amplifier feedback - post here [message #37682 is a reply to message #37681] Wed, 07 August 2002 04:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
trancemitr is currently offline  trancemitr
Messages: 74
Registered: May 2009
Viscount
Thanks. I'd really love to hear what you have to say about them.

Kevin

Re: Amplifier feedback - post here [message #37684 is a reply to message #37682] Wed, 07 August 2002 06:18 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
mikebake is currently offline  mikebake
Messages: 243
Registered: May 2009
Grand Master
You can read some stuff here
http://www.norh.com/docs/amps/amps.html

and also here
http://www.norh.com/products/leamp/bg.html

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