Home » Sponsored » Pi Speakers » Phase, delays and offset baffle spacing
Re: Could this [message #37613 is a reply to message #37611] Sat, 03 August 2002 05:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mikebake is currently offline  mikebake
Messages: 243
Registered: May 2009
Grand Master
I have emailed Bruce Edgar to see if he can send me a copy of the graph.
Re: Could this [message #37614 is a reply to message #37611] Sat, 03 August 2002 05:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mikebake is currently offline  mikebake
Messages: 243
Registered: May 2009
Grand Master
If I recall, they were measuring how many milleseconds delay was discernible. The delay was less noticeable in the bass region, sloped to be most noticeable in the 2.5 5k region, then became less noticeable as the freq went up from there. I have emailed Bruce Edgar to see if he can email the graph.
Re: Coax point source drivers?? [message #37615 is a reply to message #37608] Sat, 03 August 2002 05:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mikebake is currently offline  mikebake
Messages: 243
Registered: May 2009
Grand Master
You aren't missing anything, and the Urei weren't a true point source, of course.
Re: Could this [message #37616 is a reply to message #37614] Sat, 03 August 2002 11:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Krojgaard is currently offline  Peter Krojgaard
Messages: 30
Registered: May 2009
Baron
Hi mikebake,

Thanks for your reply!

I just did a search at the 'high efficiency' forum that hit a message from Bruce Edgar (see below) that may be the one you refer to - at least it corresponds quite well with your memory!

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/HUG/messages/24987.html

(I hope it's o.k. to refer to other peoples post in this way - if not please let me know)

Here Bruce Edgar claims that only misalignments larger than 1 foot can be heard and primarily at higher frequences.

In a related post Bruce Edgar states that using 1. order crossovers minimizes the errors even further.

Have you any idea whether 4th. order crossovers would makes potential alignment problems worse - and if yes why?

Regards
Peter K.



Re: Phase and "time alignment" revisited [message #37617 is a reply to message #37612] Sat, 03 August 2002 11:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Krojgaard is currently offline  Peter Krojgaard
Messages: 30
Registered: May 2009
Baron
Hi Wayne,

Thanks for your reply. Yes, there is a lot of good information in your archives (a lot for me to read and learn!)

Regards
Peter K.

Re: Could this [message #37621 is a reply to message #37616] Sat, 03 August 2002 13:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tom Brennan is currently offline  Tom Brennan
Messages: 32
Registered: May 2009
Baron
Pk---This all goes back to the famous "double-tap" incident at MGM in the 1930s. The sound track of Eleanor Powell tapdancing was being played back through a WE monitor with a 12 foot mismatch between the bass and treble horns. Double clicks, an echo, were heard. John Hilliard, a sound engineer at MGM investigated the problem and found the echo was caused by the path length difference. When he moved the tweeter horn back into the same plane as the basshorn driver the echo was gone. Hilliard'd subsequent experiments determined that the effect was frequency dependant and that 3ms (about 3 feet) mismatch was inaudible when the crossover was between 500 and 800hz.

This incident was one of the things that spurred Hilliard to get his boss at MGM to finance the development of an improved theater playback speaker, the famous Shearer Horn. Hilliard went on to be the big Kahuna of engineering at Altec and is the Zeus of The Horn Gods.

Re: Could this [message #37626 is a reply to message #37621] Sun, 04 August 2002 00:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Krojgaard is currently offline  Peter Krojgaard
Messages: 30
Registered: May 2009
Baron
Hi Tom,

Thanks for bringing up this nice and illustrative piece of history!

Regards
Peter

P.S.: Nice Chicago Horn Club website!

Re: Phase, delays and offset baffle spacing [message #37640 is a reply to message #37590] Sun, 04 August 2002 16:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Farb Sklarb is currently offline  Farb Sklarb
Messages: 6
Registered: May 2009
Esquire
Thanks for an interesting article. May I make a couple of comments?

The apparent offset of the driver is proportional to phase shift divided by frequency. Phase shift is proportional to the arctan of the measurement frequency divided by the crossover frequency. When this ratio is small (i.e., when f

Re: Phase, delays and offset baffle spacing [message #37643 is a reply to message #37640] Sun, 04 August 2002 17:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18739
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)
It looks like you grasp this stuff pretty well. But I might point out that the delay from the crossovers is not some kind of "virtual" or abstract thing. It is a very real property, and is expressed as movement in the time domain. Work is only done when power is applied to the motors. And for power to be presented to the speaker motors, it requires that current be flowing. Reactive components change the rate of change of current flow in a circuit. That's how the delays happen in a crossover, and why there is achange in phase.

It isn't so much that there is an abstract concept of time and that capacitors cause a "time warp." But it is that current leads voltage in a capacitor, and that voltage leads current in an inductor. Current and voltage rise at the same rate in a resistor. That's why the delays are described as they are in a reactive device, and the issues that are represented by phase are actual, measurable and identifiable properties in the time domain.

Re: Phase, delays and offset baffle spacing [message #37654 is a reply to message #37643] Mon, 05 August 2002 10:09 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Farb Sklarb is currently offline  Farb Sklarb
Messages: 6
Registered: May 2009
Esquire
Thanks for the reply. I agree with what you're saying, but let me clarify my point as well. Consider two filters, one a first-order low-pass at 1600Hz, and the other a 156.25uS pure delay with a 3dB pad on the output. Drive both with a continuous sine wave at 1600Hz and compare the outputs. They will be the same, -3dB and -45 degree phase (assuming I didn't screw up my math!).

Now, change the input signal to a 1600Hz toneburst. Whereas the output of the low-pass filter will begin to change just as soon as the leading edge of the toneburst arrives (ignoring propagation delay, i.e., the speed of light), absolutely nothing will come out of the second filter until 156.25uS have passed. So, while both filters have a delay, in some qualifiable way, the nature of the delays is different. I suppose you could say, sT compared to 1 / (1 + sT).

Anyway, I guess I'm getting a bit too esoteric. It's just something I started thinking about after reading your article. Again, sorry if this is inappropriate material for the forum.



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