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akhilesh (or anyone else of course :-) [message #3651] Thu, 31 August 2006 07:27 Go to next message
Mr Vinyl is currently offline  Mr Vinyl
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Is Peter A. saying that when solid state and tube equipment are level matched using his methods nobody can hear a difference in a DBT. Or does he not include tube equipment in such tests because (according to him) they are just adding distortion? I'm asking akhilesh because he seems to be very familiar with PA and the Audio Critic mag.

Components sounding alike: Aczel's view [message #3656 is a reply to message #3651] Thu, 31 August 2006 08:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
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HI Mr. Vinyl,
Aczel is saying that all the measurements we make of amplifiers & preamps & digital sources pretty much tell us all we need to know to predict their sound. In other words, there is not much mystique to the prediction of how these components will sound. The measures we use include of course frequency curves, distortion, stress at different levels of power, etc.

He used to hear differences between them all the time till the early 1990-s, and then, when he started level matching them to within 0.1 db before conducting a blind test (single or double) he suddenly found they all sounded the same because (as we discussed earlier) they have negligible differences between them in measurements. In fact measurement devices are much more sensitive than the human ear, and will show differences that we cannot hear. So Aczel says ( and many do agree) that the differences we tend to hear when we swap components are largely because of volume changes (if they are not level matched precisely) interacting with the room etc.

You are correct: he never reviews tube amps because they WILL sound different (in other words will color or distort the signal). That some of us find that pleasant is outside the scope of his writing, he is only interested in high fidelity equipment.

So why does he even bother to review amplifiers, CD players & preamps? Becuase, as he says, people buy equipment for how reliably it's made, how nice it looks, and maybe even for infitesimal improvements in measurement that cannot possibly be heard but may just make them feel good, knowing they have the best.

For example, in his reviews, amps by Bryston are excellent. they perform superior to most amps, (even though this superior performance is not really audible since even cheap amps have only slightly less performance) and can be overdriven quite a bit. he also likes Carver amps. Amongst CD players, he likes Sony players in general. Again, even cheap CD players wil sound the same according to him.


BTW, Aczel is not the only one who ay this. A lot of industry professionals say this. For example, Dr. Earl Geddes today always displays his $5000 (retail) Summa cum laude speakers with $200 worth of electronics (amp & source). See Rocky Mountain Audio fest reports to verify this.

It's fun to see the "tweako" reviewers
talk about how transparent his speakers sound, and how they can "hear" the inferior electronics he uses, and if only the "old fool" would conform to industry dogma and use expensive sources & amps (which I am sure they will gladly provide ) how much better his system will sound.

Like I said, if this concept really gets out, a lot of the high end industry would just shut down (except for speaker manufactureres of course). Hence the crzed bashing of Aczel...he has been successfully reduced to a by-word in the industry...an skeleton so to speak, and at age 80 I don;t think he even cares.

That said, I use a $2200 (retail) CD player in one of my systems. Why? Cos it's made in W germany (a Berendsen cdp-1) & uses:
D/A converter: Crystal CS 4390 with resolution
equivalent to 20 Bit
Reconstruction filter: purely passive
Output driver configuration: Discrete single-ended class A.
Does it sound better than my $700 (retail) Sony Xa20-ES? I have never done a DBT but I believe Aczel. It probably won't sound better. But I didn't buy it for the "better sound" I just try to buy stuff based on my perception of quality.

Hope this helped out some of your thoughts.
-akhilesh

Re: Components sounding alike: Aczel's view [message #3663 is a reply to message #3656] Thu, 31 August 2006 09:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mr Vinyl is currently offline  Mr Vinyl
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Thanks again Akhilish,

I am open to all views until I am educated enough to know better. I own Thiel speakers (PA doesn't agree with their use of 6th order crossovers) and tube electronics. Although I do have a solid state Amp (Krell). They sound great to me. I heard a pretty significant difference when I switched from a Audio Research sp9 preamp to a Manley (oh no another industry black hat according to PA) Steelhead. I would be willing to accept that the tubes are just adding distortion but what a lovely distortion it is! So I will keep putting some thought into this subject. If I come up with another "theory" I will be happy to have you guys shoot it down again. I'll let you know.

Thanks



Re: Components sounding alike: Aczel's view [message #3664 is a reply to message #3663] Thu, 31 August 2006 09:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
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Registered: May 2009
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Like I said, I use mainly SET amps.
Aczel would just shake his head.
But I like the way they sound, even though they measure like crap and tailor the sound every which way but loose.
-akhilesh

Re: Just Go back Far Enough In The Lit; He Loved Tubes. [message #3670 is a reply to message #3664] Thu, 31 August 2006 10:04 Go to previous message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
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Man changes like the weather.

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