Home » Audio » General » Can someone help me critique this theory I have been formulating?
Can someone help me critique this theory I have been formulating? [message #3603] Wed, 30 August 2006 09:35 Go to next message
Mr Vinyl is currently offline  Mr Vinyl
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After spending much time with my newly acquired Audio Critic magazines. I have been trying to figure out a logical reason why DBT would not work with audio components. I admit I am not very technically savvy on this subject, which is the reason for this post. I have come up with the following theory. Let's just suppose that the main difference between audio components (preamp, amp etc) is in their ability to portray dynamics. In other words what makes one preamp sound better than another, is that one is more dynamic on all levels while the other is compressing the musical peaks. If this is true wouldn't matching the levels of the preamps make them sound similar or similar enough where you could no longer pick out the more dynamic preamp in a DBT? This is hard to get across in a post so let me try to make it clearer. If one preamp is compressing the music and it's volume/level is matched with a more dynamic preamp using a sound meter then in reality what you are doing is playing the preamp that's compressing the sound louder than the dynamic preamp. So now in a DBT when you try to hear the more dynamic preamp you are easily confused because of the volume match.

Hope that was clear. Can someone find fault with this idea? Sorry if it's simplistic but that's the reason I am asking.

Thanks for your input in advance.

Re: Can someone help me critique this theory I have been formulating? [message #3604 is a reply to message #3603] Wed, 30 August 2006 10:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
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I have a question; how come guitar players and piano players etc never need DBT to tell if something sounds good or if they can hear a difference; they just know and all of them agree on the good sounding stuff. Why is that?
No one ever needed to compare a '56 strat to see if it sounded better than a new strat.

Re: Can someone help me critique this theory I have been formulating? [message #3605 is a reply to message #3604] Wed, 30 August 2006 10:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mr Vinyl is currently offline  Mr Vinyl
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You either believe double blind testing is accurate or it is not. If it is not then why?

Re: Can someone help me critique this theory I have been formulating? [message #3606 is a reply to message #3605] Wed, 30 August 2006 10:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
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Well; is "Why" the right question? It is my understanding that for a truely usefull and psychologically sound result all possible variables must be held stable. Since it appears to me that our ability to even determine what all the possible variables are; and to be able to do that is under question then is any possible result of any usefull accuracy?
I know Aczel believes it is; yet don't you find it a little puzzling that these DBT results almost never coincide with results that would provide a usefull set of data? Not to mention that the samples are always way too small for a true DBT study to have any validity. In other words it is almost always a wash regarding information that would prove anything one way or the other. Which brings us back to the guitar question. How do they all come to agree?

Re: Can someone help me critique this theory I have been formulating? [message #3607 is a reply to message #3603] Wed, 30 August 2006 11:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
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"If one preamp is compressing the music and it's volume/level is matched with a more dynamic preamp using a sound meter then in reality what you are doing is playing the preamp that's compressing the sound louder than the dynamic preamp. So now in a DBT when you try to hear the more dynamic preamp you are easily confused because of the volume match."

Hi Mr. Vinyl,
Dynamics have to do with managing the CHANGES in amplitude (or volume).
So, to take your example, if we set both initial components to, say: 90 db.
Then if one setup can go upto 110 db SPL without distortion ,and the other can go to say 120 db SPL without distortion (assuming a certain speaker system of course) then if the Program material has 115 db peaks, then one should be able to handle it better.

SO setting the initial volume the same DOES NOT in any way mean one can handle peaks better than the other.
Hope this helps
-akhilesh

Re: Can someone help me critique this theory I have been formulating? [message #3608 is a reply to message #3605] Wed, 30 August 2006 11:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
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All double blind testing does is it takes away the knowledge of what components are being changed, both by the tester and the subject. It eliminates all sorts of biases that can then creep up. It is widely accepted in science, and even in areas like wine tasting.

The opponents of DBT in audio (well the more rational ones who have spent some time thinking about this anyway) argue that somehow DBT forces an "artificial experience" on the listener, in other words, the process of being tested destroys the highly subjective and somehow ephemereal emotional experience of listening to music.

My argument to that is: why not just cover the components in anonymous looking, unmarked grey boxes, with little slots for the cables to go through and then let the subject use them as they would any visible component, for as long as they like (a few months even).

Anonymous grey boxes don't cost that much.

I think that vested interests in audio (most manufacturers, and the subjective magazine reviewers//editors) simply will not do this because they are scared of what they might find. Otherwise, don;t you think they;d be doing this & shouting the results all over the rooftops?

So they attack DBT. It's amusing to see. Aczel is the only one who has no fear of speaking the truth as he sees it.
-akhilesh



Re: Can someone help me critique this theory I have been formulating? [message #3609 is a reply to message #3607] Wed, 30 August 2006 12:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mr Vinyl is currently offline  Mr Vinyl
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Hmm, you may be right but bare with me if you don't mind. If one preamp has better dynamics and can hit 90db on say drum hits. The other preamp at the same volume can only hit 80db on drum hits because it is compressing dynamics. Then the sound meter would show 90db on drum hits for the "dynamic" preamp and 80db for the compressed preamp. Therefore to match the preamps you would turn the volume of the lesser preamp up till it also read 90db on drum hits. This would make all the other sounds the preamp produces louder than the Dynamic preamp. See what I mean? Hard to convey. Or maybe I'm wrong.

Thanks for your input. Much appreciated.

Re: Can someone help me critique this theory I have been formulating? [message #3610 is a reply to message #3609] Wed, 30 August 2006 13:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
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HI Mr Vinyl,
To match volume, you usually do it on a predetermined sine frequency: the norm is 1 khz. So we don't do it using program material like drun hits, rather on a preset pure frequency like a sine wave.

If the SPL was 85 db for the sine frequency, the drum hit would probably be a bit higher in SPL, say the true value was 100 db.
IF there was compression that was due to the component under study, then in one case the drum hit would register at 96 db, and in the other at 100 db. Or itwould do 100 db for both, but there would be more distortion.
-akhilesh

Re: Can someone help me critique this theory I have been formulating? [message #3611 is a reply to message #3606] Wed, 30 August 2006 13:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Leland Crooks is currently offline  Leland Crooks
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How do they all come to agree?

I play. It's almost indefinable. My son and I own identical guitars. Mines a couple of years newer. Dillion ripoffs of PRS guitars. His played like a dream so I went and found one for myself when I started playing electric again. Here's the deal, mine sounds better. The differences are very subtle, but are there.

Real players can get whatever they want out of about any axe. It's more about the fingers than the guitar.

I also think with the old stuff the quality of the wood was so much better in the 40's and 50's. The body composition does change the tone of an electric, just not as much as an acoustic. You just can't acquire the kind of lumber they took for granted.

Also, tube amps absolutely smoke solid state, if you're looking for nice sound. Solid state is fine for ultradistorted.

Re: Can someone help me critique this theory I have been formulating? [message #3612 is a reply to message #3606] Wed, 30 August 2006 13:39 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Mr Vinyl is currently offline  Mr Vinyl
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Registered: May 2009
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Hi MB,

Listen I'm sorry but I find it very hard to discuss anything with you. I find your posts to be antagonistic and full of half truths. I don't mean to be nasty. It's not my intention. Let's just agree to disagree. Ok? I really don't want every post I make turned into a heated argument.

Sorry if I am jumping to conclusions.

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