Home » Audio » Group Build » SE 300B Project, Part 13 - The finished amp
SE 300B Project, Part 13 - The finished amp [message #31912] Mon, 26 June 2006 12:25 Go to next message
Damir is currently offline  Damir
Messages: 1005
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (2nd Degree)

Well, I finally put together two AZ50 rectifiers, two 300B and two C3g tubes on the top of the 19"/2HE rack , together with PT (grey box).
I wanted compactness of the single chasis stereo amp, but you can see the inside - two PTs, four PS chokes, two grid chokes, 11 big capacitors, two CCS modules, etc. Everything is closer together then I really liked, but I tried my best to somehow put all this together. See the position and orientations of various magnetic components.
I added partition in the middle of non-magnetic steel, a little bit of separation between the channels and components, but its main purpose was to strenghten the chasis - it isn`t human how heavy is this amp!
The components are hanging upside-down, screwed on the top plate - good for servicing, but not so nice looking of many srew-heads on the top plate...personally, I don`t care.
L & R inputs are in the corners, very close to the "Goldpoint" input attenuators and driver tubes - just a few cm of silver wire...
On the first picture you can (barely) see the pot for hum balance, and a little socket for monitoring the bias current close to the 300B socket.

From the rear you can see the (IMO - nice ) location of LEDs for the C3g bias, connectors, switches and pots.

The sound is a little more "damped" and less open then breadboarded version, probably not a surprise - monobloc construction and a larger chasis have their advantages.
After a few hours of burn-in (listening the music), the sound is a bit better, but I`ll try a few things (Mu-out) again...and again...
And one more thing - I relocated the amp to the home where the mains voltage is about 5% lower then in my "workshop"(B+ and B1+, too)...output tubes now biased about -69V (it`s a 69/910 ~76mA), I`ll probably lower Rk`s a little. Expecting update in a week or two...

Re: SE 300B Project, Part 13 - The finished amp [message #31913 is a reply to message #31912] Mon, 26 June 2006 16:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18791
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Wow, that's awesome, Damir! Great work!


Re: SE 300B Project, Part 13 - The finished amp [message #31918 is a reply to message #31912] Sun, 02 July 2006 14:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Forty2wo is currently offline  Forty2wo
Messages: 163
Registered: May 2009
Master
Beautiful, just beautiful. And fast too! It takes me weeks to build a chassis, my DRD 45’s are still on bread boards.
I will have to stop by some evening and have a listen.

I have made some changes to my 300b amp but it is too hot (34) to run them :0)…John


Re: SE 300B Project, Part 13 - The finished amp [message #31919 is a reply to message #31918] Mon, 03 July 2006 06:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Damir is currently offline  Damir
Messages: 1005
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (2nd Degree)
Hey, thanks...I also worked on high temperature and humidity...huh.
The whole saturday afternoon and evening I drilled over 300 holes in the lower cover (ventilation)...first fi 3mm, then enlarge them to 4,5mm, then de-burring...
This is more tin-smith then electronic work, haha...
When I was finished, I mounted the lover cover (tightly), mounted 5 feets (weight!), and bring the amp in the main room. Just listening the music when I have some time - I`m tired of tinkering :-).
The sound is very good, little on the "soft and warm" side, but not too much that we can say "colored"... Clean, detailed, very nice! I think that it just started to "open up". Interestingly, two guys with large experience in the amps building privately suggested me 300h burn-in like their experience. They don`t like the forums, I don`t blame them...
I measured 5,7 & 6,6 mV of hum on speaker terminals - not overly good, but probably normal for the stereo amp with very small steel chasis. Most of this hum comes from the AC heating, and a little from electromagnetic interactions. Even shorted input grid on 300B doesn`t change the level of hum. Interestingly, one "Svetlana" tube with the hum pot in the middle shows almost 50mV of humm- large "off center"! I needed large turn of hum pot to find the minimum hum. However, the hum isn`t noticeable in the listening position, but people with very sensitive speakers better use bigger chasis of non-magnetic metal, monobloc construction, partitions, and DC heating like reccomendable option.
I`ll do some other measurements, when I find some time. And yes - the amp weights exactly 20 kg ...

Re: SE 300B Project, Part 13 - The finished amp [message #31920 is a reply to message #31919] Mon, 03 July 2006 17:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Forty2wo is currently offline  Forty2wo
Messages: 163
Registered: May 2009
Master
As to the hum, that is about what I get with my 300b (TJ) I think you will find you will not get much better unless you go DC on the filament. When I set up my DRD for these same set of tubes the hum was the same. the 45’s are down at 2-3 mV with the exact same wiring setup...John



Re: SE 300B Project, Part 13 - The finished amp [message #31921 is a reply to message #31912] Sun, 09 July 2006 13:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
horny is currently offline  horny
Messages: 11
Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
hi very nice work!
i am new here
the amp looks like a very nice project for me
can you tell me what the input sensitivity is?
i use no preamp only a passive autoformer

did anyone try a ec8010 as driver stage ?



Re: SE 300B Project, Part 13 - The finished amp [message #31922 is a reply to message #31921] Mon, 10 July 2006 07:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Damir is currently offline  Damir
Messages: 1005
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (2nd Degree)
Hi, thanks, and welcome to the forum!

We need about 50Vrms (70Vp) to "drive" 300B to the full power. With CCS-ed driver triode (and high impedance 300B grid choke as a load), we have the "driver" amplification practically equal to the µ, or theoretical amplification factor (very close).
In the case of E180F in triode - A = µ ~ 50, or input sensitivity for the full power is 1 Vrms. Although C3g specs said µ~40, my "Siemens" tubes have µ~50, again - input sens. is 1Vrms. (If we`d have a tube with "right" µ=40 spec, then sens. would be 50/40= 1,25Vrms).
D3a has larger amplification, A=µ~75, and then input sensitivity is about 0,7Vrms.

Unfortunately, I have no EC8010, and didn`t try them. But, (based on its data) I expect it to be the similar like other high-gm "candidates" above, and others I tried (6C45Pi, E280F trioded).
If you have some EC8010 on hands, the best you can do is to try it for yourself. Use CCS, Ia~10mA, Rk=220-250 Ohms bypassed with 220µF (MKP of 100µF at least reccomended) - like your starting point. Beware that this tube has g1 connected on five pins... I`d use grid-stop resistor (say 100...220 Ohms, CC) on every input pin. Based on the specs, you can expect A=µ=60 times, or input sensitivity of 50/60 = 0,83Vrms. Adjust Ia (or Rk if necessary) to have Ua about 200V. Seriously, only you`d can say about "sound" in your system, and like/dislike factors :-).
You can expect rel. large input capacitance, unfortunately.

Do you have some parts (tubes, transformers, etc.), or you are still in "various schematics" phase?

Re: SE 300B Project, Part 13 - The finished amp [message #31923 is a reply to message #31922] Tue, 11 July 2006 09:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
horny is currently offline  horny
Messages: 11
Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
hi Damir
thanks i think that i first build it with the ec8010
i will drive the ec8010 at 20 ma
and use a gridchoke on the 300b the same as you use
just for trying try a 10k resistor parallel with the gridchoke
and report the sound on this forum
i find this better sounding

i have various transformers laying around
also chokes so i can try different things

as you say expect large input capacitance with the ec8010
what does this mean???
give this some roll of in hi or low frequencies?
and is there a solution
i use no active preamp just a 24 steps autoformer with 8 feet
(2 meters)interlink between the autoformer and the amp



Re: SE 300B Project, Part 13 - The finished amp [message #31924 is a reply to message #31923] Tue, 11 July 2006 10:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Damir is currently offline  Damir
Messages: 1005
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (2nd Degree)
Hey, I tried various resistors "across" the grid choke, from 100k-1Meg. It can help a little to damp RCL resonance, and/or to "kill" RF oscillations problems... Sometimes I thought that I hear not much of the difference, but in the end my conclusion was that it somehow "kills" that 3D "sound" and sounds somehow "flatter" and 2D...huh, too much "audiophile" language...
But, I noticed that the grid choke can be a giant pick-up on the input grid, oscillations and unstable work/sound are possible... You must mount it very close to the 300B socket, at least 1-2cm from the chasis, it`s orientation in respect with other magnetic components (OPT) is important... and check for oscillations. Lower values of parallel resistor "defeat" any benefit of the grid choke, IMO ... your 10k in parallel with high impedance of the choke is 10k...but also in the parallel with unecessary choke winding capacitance. And not just that - this grid resistor of 10k is actually in parallel with triode`s load (anode resistor, or CCS when you use anode out), and this resultant driver load is too low.
In other words, your driver "sees" just the 10k as a load, parallel with Cw... not too good, IMO.
Large input capacitance of EC8010 means that you must be carefull not to use large series resistance (pot) before the tube - HF "roll-off".

Re: SE 300B Project, Part 13 - The finished amp [message #31925 is a reply to message #31924] Tue, 11 July 2006 10:37 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
horny is currently offline  horny
Messages: 11
Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
hi Damir
thanks, thats very useful info!
i will use the ec8010 with the autoformers these have a dc resistance of 35 ohm and a induction of 180H
will this work fine then?
btw. how much is de input capacitance of de c3g driver?



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