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Paging BillF, GraemeG and SwollenL - Massive hornsub [message #27861]

Mon, 15 March 2004 11:09

DanR
Messages: 44
Registered: May 2009

Baron

What is the biggest, deepest, fattest LOW DISTORTION bass you have come up with? I'm looking for horns that fit through a door and can be carried by two people. All local crews so trucking is not required but portability is. Main emphasis is 20-80hz, so woofers should be low distortion at 20hz to keep the harmonics from entering the throat. Post your websites if you have them. I'd appreciate any input you have for LOW DISTORTION DEEP BASS.

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Re: Paging BillF, GraemeG and SwollenL - Massive hornsub [message #27862 is a reply to message #27861]

Mon, 15 March 2004 11:59

DanR
Messages: 44
Registered: May 2009

Baron

Maybe we could stir up interest in another project horn. I like the labhorn idea, I just would rather use a better woofer to tighten the bass up. I love the size and volume of the labs though. What say you? Would you guys be interested in something like this?

Also, what do you think of BagEnd and EAW hornsubs? Craig Janssen spoke highly of them (see below). I think I'll speak to Bud Berry or someone else at EAW and arrange a demo. Are EAW subs clean and tight down low?

Pro Sound Web Live Chat With Craig Janssen

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100dB/watt at 20 Hz is overkill. [message #27863 is a reply to message #27862]

Mon, 15 March 2004 12:59

Bill Fitzmaurice
Messages: 335
Registered: May 2009

Grand Master

I personally would recommend against trying for max SPL from a horn-loaded sub to 20 Hz, assuming that means you want to get at least 100dB/watt at 20 Hz, simply because there isn't enough program power down there to justify it. In my 'Tuba 24' article you can read how I did a series of RTAs at a 6,500 seat concert venue featuring over 30 top acts of various genres from C&W to Metal, and consistently the highest power requirements were from 60 to 100 Hz, with levels at even 40 Hz down 25dB from those at 60 Hz. This was not a product of the sound systems being used, usually at least a dozen 18 subs. In terms of what is actually required for live pro-sound a better way to go is a stepped response curve, with maximum SPL from 60 to 100Hz, where it's needed, and a more modest output capability below that where it isn't, and that's where my designs for live-sound subs are heading.

On the other hand, for HT a lower Fc is required, but at far lower levels, so my HT designs are aiming for just that, a lower Fc along with lower SPL to keep cabinet size within reason.

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Magnum hornsub [message #27864 is a reply to message #27862]

Mon, 15 March 2004 13:24

Wayne Parham
Messages: 18786
Registered: January 2001

Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I have a possible suggestion. I'll check with Eminence and see if they have a Magnum version of their LAB12, or if they would be willing to make them for you. You could use them in a horn with the same physical dimensions as the LABhorn and that would keep you from having to reinvent the wheel.

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Re: 100dB/watt at 20 Hz is overkill. [message #27865 is a reply to message #27863]

Mon, 15 March 2004 14:04

DanR
Messages: 44
Registered: May 2009

Baron

If I understand you are saying the deepest bass should not be horn loaded. That squares with what my tech says, because he doesn't want harmonics from the deepest bass to enter the horn. I'm told that increases distortion since mostly the harmonics are boosted by the horn. My thinking is that if we have a very high quality woofer it will alleviate the problem. Maybe a better idea is to keep the bottom end separate from the midbass though and remain horn loaded from the midbass up.

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Re: Magnum hornsub [message #27866 is a reply to message #27864]

Mon, 15 March 2004 14:04

DanR
Messages: 44
Registered: May 2009

Baron

That sounds interesting. Please keep us informed.

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Re: Magnum hornsub [message #27867 is a reply to message #27866]

Mon, 15 March 2004 14:31

Wayne Parham
Messages: 18786
Registered: January 2001

Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Eminence says they would entertain this idea with a minimum order of 100 units. So if there is enough interest, you can have your low-distortion horn sub.

Since the horn uses two woofers per cabinet, that's only fifty boxes. Wouldn't be hard to do that quantity at all. So it looks like a low-distortion horn subwoofer would be well within reach.

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Re: 100dB/watt at 20 Hz is overkill. [message #27868 is a reply to message #27865]

Mon, 15 March 2004 16:29

Bill Fitzmaurice
Messages: 335
Registered: May 2009

Grand Master

You're on the right track. For Pro-sound horn loaded efficiency is necessary only down to 40 or 50 Hz, and if you design the box with a gradual (12dB) rolloff below Fc (minimal reactance annulling so that the driver reverts to direct radiator mode for the octave below Fc) there is still plenty of power available for the lower octave. As for drivers, the biggest problem is that designers tend to use drivers with Fs way too low. Eminence has come out with a 12 inch Magnum (I already have a prototype in hand and it is nice) with a 43 Hz Fs that is much more amenable to horn loading than the Lab12 for pro-sound duty.

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40hz even seems really impressive with PA [message #27870 is a reply to message #27863]

Mon, 15 March 2004 18:06

Mike.e
Messages: 471
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (1st Degree)

When i was at a drum n bass event, they played some techy slow DNB with organ tunes,sounded like 40-50hz,it was great,and it was clean,the DYNACord german line arrays did it with ease! i was suprised how little distortion there was at such high levels.

Too bad the cd versions of their songs are so bass-tame :P

Cheers!

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Re: 100dB/watt at 20 Hz is overkill. [message #27871 is a reply to message #27863]

Tue, 16 March 2004 05:07

GraemeG
Messages: 54
Registered: May 2009

Baron

Hi Bill,

(A bit tamer than AA over here !)
You have made reference to the RTA measurements before, and I wonder how this was taken - was it accoustic or line feed from PA input? If the measurements were accoustic, then I would expect that from most PA bottom end cabinets a massive input at below 40Hz WOULD show up as increased level in the 80-120Hz area.

With the trend towards bass guitars with fundamental tones around 31Hz, together with low kick drum tuning, we should be looking closer at reproducing these lower frequencies accurately in the PA arena. I quite often have to deal with kick drums tuned down around 40Hz or lower, and with my current PA gear, have to either retune the drum higher or just contain and process the harmonics. I am currently working on a REAL 35Hz PA sub.

Cheers
Graeme
(Centauri at AA)

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