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For me it would have to be short division :) (NT) [message #2537 is a reply to message #2532]

Mon, 19 December 2005 20:31

MWG
Messages: 344
Registered: May 2009

Grand Master

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Re: Critical Listening [message #2539 is a reply to message #2535]

Tue, 20 December 2005 07:44

MWG
Messages: 344
Registered: May 2009

Grand Master

I'm glad you responded and thank you. Every post has given me something different to think about. I, like you have gotten to the point where I either like the sound of something or I don't. I usually can't accurately articulate why but it no longer matters to me. I'm comfortable with what I am so that I can appreciate others opinions and try and see how they arrived at them. Whereas before I was more concerned with keeping with those that seemed to agree with what I was thinking at the time.
As an aside I was listening to Mark Knopfler & Chet Atkins Neck & Neck CD last night and it just seems so soothing even at higher volume I just flop back in my chair and close my eyes and enjoy the whole thing. Those two obviously are enjoying every minute of what they are doing. It really shows in the sound. In case anyone really likes guitar music and hasn't heard this CD. I heartily recommend it.

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Re: Critical Listening [message #2541 is a reply to message #2539]

Tue, 20 December 2005 12:24

Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (13th Degree)

Can I join the chorus? I like you'all am not an engineer and don't particularly keep up with methodology of measuring practice. What I am is an amatuer muscician for 35 yrs. We try to remain nuetral in these types of discussions because as I say we don't have the background to argue specific measured abilities of loudspeakers. But I ask; why are we relegated to this second-class status?
We all have extensive experience listening to live and recorded music and we all have good systems; so what exactly is the criteria we are not privey too? So we can't derive a frequency response plot or undertake to establish what constitutes a proper waterfall plot.
What we can do is hear. So the question should really be; what is the criteria for having the ability to make good judgements concerning what sounds good?
Do we need to explain the exact number of half-tones represented in the middle C on the keyboard?
Is someone who has perfect pitch more qualified than any engineer to design loudspeakers?
Can all engineers sing on key? I have heard a feww that when they sing it sounds like two cats fighting.
Should part of the requirements for setting yourself up as a designer be that you know how to follow a musical train of thought and replicate it somehow on your own without instruments of measurement?
Curious how this is the only hobby where you don't have to be expert in the point of the hobby; only in the ability to map it mathematically or measure it with instruments.
Sort of like someone taking up golf and just studying how to map the putting greens or wrap a club handle.

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Chet was the second coming nt [message #2542 is a reply to message #2535]

Wed, 21 December 2005 05:28

Leland Crooks
Messages: 212
Registered: May 2009

Master

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If you like Chet [message #2543 is a reply to message #2542]

Wed, 21 December 2005 07:57

MWG
Messages: 344
Registered: May 2009

Grand Master

Then listen to Mark Knopfler. He does many types of music and a lot of the music scores. Get his Shangra-La cd and give it a listen. It has a couple of rock tunes on it but none of the white noise you hear today. It's very melodic. Golden Heart is another good one also. Ragpicker's Dream has a lot of depression era type music on it. You probably already know he was the driving force behind the band Dire Straits which was popular a few years back. Their music is pretty good. A mixture of rock, Jazz and other things. Money for Nothing was their biggest hit but not their best song by a long ways. Chet & Mark did at least two albums together. I forget the name o the other one.

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Re: If you like Chet [message #2544 is a reply to message #2543]

Wed, 21 December 2005 08:33

Leland Crooks
Messages: 212
Registered: May 2009

Master

About all I've heard from Knopfler is Dire Straits. I knew he collaborated with Chet. I need to pick that up.

Chet was the second coming. Joe Pass was the first

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Re: Critical Listening [message #2545 is a reply to message #2535]

Wed, 21 December 2005 09:43

hurdy_gurdyman
Messages: 416
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (1st Degree)

I'm also one of those who listen with my emotions rather than with test equipment. It either sounds right or it doesn't. My own background is that of being a musician since age 12 (I'm 50 now, you do the math) and being an audiophile a year or two longer than that. For years I religiously followed mainstream audio magazines in how to evaluate and choose equipment. I went from listening to old tubed consoles in my teens to new ss components. Old open backed speakers with 8-12 inch fullrange/widerange drivers (sometimes with tweeters added, sometimes not) to air suspension and bass reflex boxes. I've been to places with big horn systems on down and have heard almost every kind of speaker technology. Back in the early 80's I got a philosophical (sp) shock. A friend gave me a little 12 watt tube amp (Bogen, I think). This ancient thing amazed me with it's good, musical sound. Since then, I've worked my way back from complex three way speakers to simpler two way with simple crossover and a separate sub to fullrange driver. I've tried alternative enclosures (like TQWP's) and am presently with open baffle. The conclusion I have to draw is that good sound comes in all shapes and sizes, but doesn't come just because a computer designed it. I've heard speakers that done nothing to me emotionally that were rather expensive scientifically designed wonders, and I've heard simple designs that had little science applied that I drooled to the music. It just looks like, to me, that it's still not just a matter of plugging the specs into a computer and saying, "here's a good sounding speaker". I think good sound that is true to the music is something that the designers need to use their own ears to fine tune after the design has been built, and the willingness to change it if it just doesn't do it emotionally. Nothing against science, I think it's needed, but the "human factor" still needs to make the final call. The speaker needs to hit the emotional bone, which is more important than the spec graph. If the two can come together, great! if not, I'll go with emotional satisfaction every time.
BTW, I'm still listening to a late 50's 12" fullrange driver with a high crossed tweeter on an open baffle with a sub below 60 Hz. Simply haven't heard anything remotely affordable that is inspiring me to buy (or build) anything different (even though I've thought about it a few times). My musical emotion bone just tingles to good when I listen to what I already have, so why risk disappointment? I'm equally sure that this system wouldn't measure as well as some of the steril sounding ones I've heard. I just don't care anymore.
And I'm in agreement with the poster who mentioned many modern speakers have to much treble. That's something that has bothered both me and my non-audiophile wife many times in the past. She's also happy with the sound I get from my rolled off speakers.

Whew! Biggest post I've made in ages!

Dave

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Re: If you like Chet [message #2546 is a reply to message #2544]

Wed, 21 December 2005 19:28

MWG
Messages: 344
Registered: May 2009

Grand Master

Mark Knopfler must have input into how his albums are mastered as they all sound very good without any of the shrillness associated with some of today's CD's. I saw three very good guitar players on one show once. It was the Jose Feliciano show and he had Roy Clark and Glenn Campbell on. All three played a couple of songs together. I never knew that Campbell was that good.

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