Herein lies essential conflict. The DIYer wants to believe that s/he has a quality system, and the manufacturer doesn't want the buying public to think that they can actually build a quality system for less.

As long as both are considered an essential part of the forum, they will be at each others throats all the time. This is especially the case with arrays since they take very very long for the DIYer to build.

Its a further decision that any moderator here must consider.

This forum is becoming a refuge for manufacturers, not one for DIYers. The DIYers will leave and the manufacturers will stay, and the only purpse will be to display the manufacturer's products.

By having the moderator say: ".....my choice is always to buy the plans for a proven design by an expert like Jim, who has the knowledge, test equipment, and experienced ears needed to optimize a design. You pay a few dollars more, but you get a well designed speaker," you are clearly implying that someone who DIY's an array couldn't possibly have a well designed speaker.

Clearly, what the moderator's direction is, is to center discussion on the proven designs of certain manufacturers. This will drive the discussion away, and the DIYer's away.

Since I am a DIYer, it sure is driving me away.

Its all about what you want. You've made it pretty clear what you want, FredT.

Lumpy

What Fred T. says..... Even if it is his personal preference, it still starts a range war, or sends DIYers away. If he wants a forum which emphasizes the manufacturers, then that's the way to go. If he wants a forum that emphasizes the DIYer's then he must not put a bias on how much better the manufacturer products are.

Its the way of it. I've been here only a short time, but I've think I've had enough. This is clearly a manufacturer forum even if it implies that its a DIYer. Its not.

Whose doing most of the talking of late?

I guess it will be "Goodbye and Good Riddance", huh?

Bye now!

Lumpy

Some people like to talk about various commercially available products. Some like to talk about industry news. Some like to talk about DIY projects. All are fine as long as discourse is civil. The thing I personally prefer is discussion of technologies, design principles, etc. By sticking with the facts, design ideas, mathematical models and measurement data, you can hope to have a meaningful conversation withouit a lot of useless bickering about opinions. But when you start calling people out by name and making ad hominem comments, then you are sure to start a fight.

There is no reason to do this. You don't have to call Fred out on the mat. He has done a lot of DIY projects. Most of his audio is DIY, and a lot of it is his own creations. Even when he gets a kit or finished design, he tends to modify it to see how he can improve on it. So to say he is guiding this forum towards favoring manufacturers is just not true.

Bring up a purely technical discussion and see what happens rather than pointing the finger at someone and making a case aginst them, personally.

Just for a second, I'd like to look at the behavior of manufacturers verses non-manufacturers on internet discussion boards. I'm not including manufacturers that drop a single post in somewhere, perhaps a public statement or an advertisement. That is clearly business oriented, and I don't consider that kind of behavior as "participation" on discussion boards. What I'm talking about are people that regularly post.

Of those that regularly post, I've seen both pros and hobbyists get into ego-driven arguments. That's where the real problem lies, in my opinion. It isn't profit motive. It's an alpha male thing. Both hobbyists and professional designers alike are equally represented in that kind of behavior. You'll see just as many DIY'ers that want to be big shots as you'll see pros. You'll see it from all educational backgrounds too, from guys with a PhD in acoustics to mechanical or electrical engineers to high school dropouts. So it isn't based on background either. It's a personality trait, in my opinion, that drives people to try to be seen as "The Ultimate Authority" in audio and to get into heated arguments on audio discussion boards.

Go to any audio forum and you'll find two or three hobbyists that are always in fights. They're ego driven. You'll also see two or three pros that are arrogant and unyielding, also always in fights. If they were truly profit oriented, they wouldn't act like that because it rarely wins friends and brings in business. They are driven by ego, pure and simple. So I don't believe "the problem" has anything at all to do with a conflict of priorities between hobbyist vs. manufacturers.

What I see as the problem is the actions of certain individuals - pro and hobbyists alike - that, having a certain deportment, will try to make the case that whatever they are focused on right now is the most important thing in the world, all should listen and any criticism should be immediately smashed, naysayers permanently banned from discussion and branded as idiots and scoundrels. That ain't a profit motive, it's an alpha male thing, a problem of control freaks.

• If you keep the discussion technical...

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Greatfull THANKS to all you more or less ego driven wonderfully people that are villing to use time to share your experience with others - DIY or not - I am just geratfull!
Mediafreak

There is no real problem here. Any forum/thread with a line array
topic doesn't get as much attention as ordinary speaker designs
because it's an advanced project that few undertake.

Any flamewars seen here seem very mild compared to what other
threads manifest and they quickly die.

You can only make things worse if you try to moderate a topic that
is already low in traffic.