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Missing the midrange [message #23513] Wed, 07 March 2007 05:00 Go to next message
Marlboro
Messages: 403
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
I believe that the midrange is the critical range in a speaker system. By using a smaller mid woofer(3.5 to 5 inch) one gives oneself the flexibility to do lots of things and adequately cover the range from 150hz to 3500hz.

Its important to know that when you are building you have the mid range adequately covered or your critical listening could suffer.

Someone on the PE forum when to the huge trouble of building a huge line array with their mid range covered by 6.5 inch woofers. As one might expect, the woofers really don't do the job adequately above 1600, and the their tweeters screech below 2500. So they have a very thin 1600 -2500 area.

Their only choice as i see it is to pull the baffle or add one, and pull the 6.5 inch woofers, and replace them with something smaller that can actually handle the midrange.

Marlboro

Re: Missing the midrange [message #23514 is a reply to message #23513] Wed, 07 March 2007 12:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
>>Someone on the PE forum when to the huge trouble of building a
>>huge line array with their mid range covered by 6.5 inch woofers.

http://www.pesupport.com/cgi-bin/config.pl?read=340023

Zedguy doesn't seem interested in fixing his problem because
he's hasn't replied to critical questions posted. It's premature
to blame his problem on the midwoofers when we know ziltch about
his design.

Right now, based on availability of product, the tweeter is more
critical in a line array design because there are only a few good
candidates whereas there are tons of midrange candidates.




But , ... [message #23515 is a reply to message #23514] Wed, 07 March 2007 12:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zobsky is currently offline  zobsky
Messages: 39
Registered: May 2009
Baron
>>Right now, based on availability of product, the tweeter is more
>>critical in a line array design because there are only a few good
>>candidates whereas there are tons of midrange candidates.

With a smaller midrange / midbass, you can get away crossing higher to a tweeter line (at which point, there are more tweeters to choose from).

Re: But , ... [message #23516 is a reply to message #23515] Wed, 07 March 2007 12:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
>>at which point, there are more tweeters to choose from

What new tweeter candidates can you find if the crossover
frequency is raised ?


The Point I was making is tehr balancing act [message #23517 is a reply to message #23514] Wed, 07 March 2007 13:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marlboro
Messages: 403
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
The point I was making, perhaps badly, was that to use too large a mid woofer limits your possible choies of tweeters.

Basically you have a much more limited choice of qulaity tweeters. With domes you have to use dayton and a very small others of the 3/4 inch size, and then you have to use a smaller midrange, usually not bigger than 5 inch. With planars and ribbons you have more choice, but if you use a 6.5 or 7 inch woofer, you already know that you will have a limited number of tweeters that go low enough without using 8 db/octave crossovers, that you use.

ITS all a balancing act with line arrays due to the comb filter distortion issues.

Marlboro

Re: But , ... [message #23518 is a reply to message #23516] Wed, 07 March 2007 13:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zobsky is currently offline  zobsky
Messages: 39
Registered: May 2009
Baron
On the cheap end, there are always the $0.20 onkyo 4 ohm tweeters at partsexpress (you may need to extricate them from their mounts).
Likewise, apexjr.com has a bunch of $1 tweeters .


These aren't ribbons, mind you, but should work well at about 5KHz upwards. Not much power needed if you array enough of them (for normal listening).

If you wait for a month or two, I can give you my first hand impressions on these

Re: But , ... [message #23519 is a reply to message #23518] Wed, 07 March 2007 14:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
$0.20 Onyko
$1.00 Apexjr

plus...

$4 Partexpress Neo

20 cent to $4 tweeters, that covers the entry level line array
designs.

What other new tweeters can you find that satisfies the higher end
designs?

Re: The Point I was making is tehr balancing act [message #23520 is a reply to message #23517] Wed, 07 March 2007 15:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
If you migrate from [6" - 8"] midwoofers to [4" - 5"] midwoofers so
you can raise the crossover frequency into the 3khz - 5khz range,
what *new* quality tweeter candidates exist if I chose this path?

Do you consider the 20 cent - 1 dollar mylar tweeters a quality tweeter? I don't.

I think the PE $4 dome would be an *ok* choice. What else can you find ?

If you shift your budget from midwoofer and make the
tweeter the priority, you can now spend the big money on a quality
tweeter because it's a critical ingridient in the recipe as you
can shift the crossover frequency to 2khz {+/- 500hz}, to improve
the sound quality of the design. Your midwoofer candidates rises
alot, you have hundreds of candidates.

I did this with the budget line array I made. Two choices;

Plan A;
* Spend $25 per midwoofer.
* Spend 50 cents per tweeter.

Plan B;
* Spend $25 per tweeter.
* Spend 50 cents per midwoofer.

The decision is based on available products.

I can easily find many $25 midwoofers that would offer great results.
But can I find a quality 50 cent tweeter? Not really. I can't think of any that are good.

But if I were to buy a $25 tweeter like PT2B and mate this with
some buyout 50 cent midranges, there is more reward to get from
this path.

Hypothetical. Your budget is $150 for a midrange/tweeter pair.

What do you do?

I can buy a Fountek ribbon for $120 and use a very good $30
midwoofer {Dayton, etc, so many choices}.

Or

I can buy a $120 Seas midwoofer and only have enough money
left over to get the PT2B tweeter which makes this plan a step
down in performance. Good tweeter candidates are very limited.

Keep in mind, this is based on available products. Who knows
what new products enter the market in the future. That can change
the gameplan.


Re: But , ... [message #23521 is a reply to message #23519] Wed, 07 March 2007 20:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zobsky is currently offline  zobsky
Messages: 39
Registered: May 2009
Baron
Here's another one with a truncated flange that might work (looks to have an Fs of somewhere around 2KhZ). Pity I haven't heard it though.


Sinar Baja 1" textile dome $7.50
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=4937174.26367&pid=120

Preachin' to the choir [message #23526 is a reply to message #23520] Thu, 08 March 2007 15:17 Go to previous message
Marlboro
Messages: 403
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
I pretty much agree with you but differ in some key areas.

Rather than purchasing 49 cent midranges, I prefer buyout models that listed for the vicinity of $11 to $18, and the use of a lot of Dayton Neo 20A tweeters(like 30 per side).

The use of that many tweeters drops the distortion way way way down, and I happen to prefer the sound of dome's anyway.

The use of a decent buyout midrange in groups of 17 plus raises the quality of the mids also. I then use a quality($130 or so) model 12 inch woofer for each side of the bass range.

But to each his own. I MIGHT be willing to try the B&G Neo3 some time.......

Marlboro

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