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Xover and line array [message #22957] Tue, 04 April 2006 13:25 Go to next message
JP Haggar is currently offline  JP Haggar
Messages: 20
Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
Hello
So far I have built 2 speaker projects , one 3 way and one Back horn loaded with full range driver but none gives me the sounstage I had in mind = big life size filling my room L shape 60 sq meters with a lot of punch and a large sweet spot !!!when looking for a third project I found line arrays and I think that this system would deliver what I want . Could someone give me some feedback ? I found a few projects like : James's line array using PL14 vifa bass/mids and stryke audio ribbon ( I could substitute the stryke audio with the BG ribbon would this be better?), unfortunately I am not very good with crossover design and I couldn't find a diagram for the crossover of this project , but only a description of it , does anybody know where I can find help for this Xover ? did somoene already construct this speaker ? any comments would be welcome . I found also that GR Reasearch Danny is designning a new line array kit the LS 9 that seems to be a very good project but it seems that Danny has some delay with the woofer production (almost one full year now).
I have a budjet of around 2000 $ if someone could give me some advise I would be grateful.
Thanks
JP Haggar


Re: Xover and line array [message #22958 is a reply to message #22957] Wed, 05 April 2006 08:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jim Griffin is currently offline  Jim Griffin
Messages: 232
Registered: May 2009
Master

JP,

I have two ideas for you to consider. One would be to consider an active crossover (models from Rane, BSS, dBX, DEQX, Behringer, etc.) if you do not wish to develop your own crossover. Now this way will necessitate multiple amplification channels (for a three way crossover a six channel amp) and perhaps other considerations but it would do the job. This approach would be the science fair project in that you would need to work out the crossover for whatever choice of drivers that you might have. Plus some measurement capability would be needed to more easily deal with the crossover point and levels.

The second thought is to contact Rick Craig at Selah Audio (www.selahaudio.com) and ask him about his Linus 3 line array kit that uses the Dayton (Parts Express) RS drivers as the woofers. This kit is not shown on Rick's website but he does have a photo (linked) in his gallery. Rick uses, I believe, the RS150 woofer together with the Fountek Neo CD2.0 ribbon tweeters (that is a true ribbon driver) and he has worked out a passive crossover for this combo. I suspect that this parts kit may cost a little more than your budget ($2400 at last report) but it would be a significant step upward in performance vs. the other options you are considering.

Jim

Perfect line array [message #22963 is a reply to message #22958] Sat, 08 April 2006 16:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JP Haggar is currently offline  JP Haggar
Messages: 20
Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
Jim
Here is what I understand from your message and the reading I've been through :
1-Every body seems to agree that the Fountek Neo CD 2.0 is a good candidate for the tweeter array at a somewhat fair price . Using 8 of these you make sure you have enough vertical coverage and an acceptable near/far field transition distance .
2-Choose a good Mid/Bass driver from 5 to 7 inches(vifa PL 14 or similar???)make an array just a bit longer than the tweeter array place them as closely as possible and if you can trim the flange to reduce the center to center distance it's even better
3-Connect the drivers by feeding more power to the center elements and less to the outer ones.
4-If you are not an expert xover designer buy a Behringer ultradrive proDCX2496 loudspeaker management system . 300 $ approx .
use multiple amplification .Or you can still try crossing over(passively) at a frequency that has a shorter wavelength that the distance from woofer center to center using a second order or higher slope ??
5- You have a versitile system that could be ajusted to any type of room .
Questions :
1- Is it better to have separate enclosures for each woofer or one big for all the line ?
2- Is the project still worth trying ? or should one stick to prooven designs ?
3- Why do line array designers like Selah Audio and others changes so many times their designs in a very short period of time ? and their old designs are not available anymore , it makes you think they are not very convinced and that there is still a lot to learn about line arrays .
Thanks
JP

Re: Perfect line array [message #22966 is a reply to message #22963] Sat, 08 April 2006 19:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jim Griffin is currently offline  Jim Griffin
Messages: 232
Registered: May 2009
Master
JP,

Comments on your points first:

1. Yes on the 8 Fountek NeoCD2.0.
2. Essentially yes. With the Neo2.0 the crossover can be low enough so that trimming flanges would not be necessary.
3. You don't necessarily need to power taper. If you do, just a little.
4&5. Essentially yes but clearly a passive crossover would be best for less complexity (just a single set of stereo amps and less wiring). An active crossover would offer more flexibility if you like to tweak.

Now for your questions:

1. One enclosure is usually preferred but it usually partitioned with internal braces to strengthen the cabinet. You could thicken the cabinet walls as an alternative but braces are really superior in my mind to a cabinet that weighs twice as much.
2. Line arrays are more complex to design and build than other speakers so one would not go into them without either build a proven design or having the expertise to work through the details.
3. Selah Audio (and several other small custom builders) is a custom builder that builds speakers per requests from their customers. So you'll see far more variety in speaker designs and finishing options vs. a company that has a large factory assembly line operation to satisfy a specific product line for their dealers. Selah builds turnkey fully assembled systems and can supply parts kits for customers who wish to build their own enclosures. It is a lower overhead, lower cost, and more flexible way to do business versus high markup high end audio.

Jim


Re: Perfect line array [message #22974 is a reply to message #22963] Wed, 12 April 2006 22:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rick Craig is currently offline  Rick Craig
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Registered: May 2009
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As Jim noted I do many custom designs so that's why you'll see a wide variety of arrays. Some changes are also due to new drivers being available. After using the Dayton RS180's in an array I couldn't justify keeping any of the Linus designs in production because the Dayton / Fountek combination surpasses those designs in every way (except it costs more).

Re: Perfect line array [message #22975 is a reply to message #22974] Wed, 12 April 2006 23:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JP Haggar is currently offline  JP Haggar
Messages: 20
Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
Yes I understand ! in that case why not keep the Dayton/fountek RS8 in the list of the available arrays ? it would complement your list with a choice of lower priced design ,for someone like me who cannot afford the Alexandrite or the XT 8 !
Are the Dayton RS 180 drivers the best you can use in it's price range ? what about the vifa P17 or PL 17 drivers ?
Thanks

Re: Perfect line array [message #22978 is a reply to message #22975] Wed, 12 April 2006 23:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rick Craig is currently offline  Rick Craig
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Registered: May 2009
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I've not included it on my site because I don't have a picture for the RS8 design. The prototype was an unfinished cabinet and I failed to take a picture.

The RS180 is the best value of any 6.5"-7" driver I've tested (and I've tried about all of them). The P17 and PL17 are decent drivers but older technology.

Re: Perfect line array [message #23008 is a reply to message #22978] Tue, 30 May 2006 09:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steven Homrighausen is currently offline  Steven Homrighausen
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Registered: May 2009
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What about the Ascendant Audio Poly 6.5"? I've been tempted to build my first array using this driver and the Fountek... It seems like a good choice. The drivers are on sale right now, and seem to be a great bargain for the price (copper shorting ring, 'phase' plug, high Xmax, high power handling). I know that others have surely looked at the Adire Extremis 6.8 - this is a similar driver with higher sensitivity, more 'upgrades', and about 1/3 the price...

http://www.ascendantaudio.com/poly_6.5_page.html

Re: Perfect line array [message #23009 is a reply to message #23008] Tue, 30 May 2006 09:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rick Craig is currently offline  Rick Craig
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Registered: May 2009
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I don't know about that driver but I have tested the Extremis. The Extremis has some performance issues that eliminate it from being a good array driver. I found the Dayton RS180 to be better and it costs less than the Adire or Ascendant woofers.

Re: Perfect line array [message #23010 is a reply to message #23009] Wed, 31 May 2006 09:53 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Steven Homrighausen is currently offline  Steven Homrighausen
Messages: 14
Registered: May 2009
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Do you remember the performance issues with the Extremis? It's possible that this driver would not have the same issues... If you have specifics, it might be worth picking up a couple of these drivers and test them to see if they have simlilar issues. $70 for a pair of them to play with might not be too bad.

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