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FredT -MLTL Bipole speaker impressions [message #21603] Mon, 26 June 2006 19:53 Go to next message
Shane is currently offline  Shane
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Registered: May 2009
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Fred, now that you've had Jim's bipole speakers for a while what is your impression?

Re: FredT -MLTL Bipole speaker impressions [message #21604 is a reply to message #21603] Tue, 27 June 2006 07:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
FredT is currently offline  FredT
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Of the five speaker pairs I have upstairs Jim's bipoles are the easiest to listen to. All the others are very good speakers, and each does at least one thing better than the bipoles: The one Pi's and the 3 Pi's can be driven by a 3 watt amp and will play much louder with a more powerful amp, and the Eros MKIII's and the Zaph Audio L-18's offer a bit more sparkle and air and will play louder with a high power solid state amp.

The bipoles offer something that's hard to describe but is very compelling. As far as I can tell it's a combination of deep, tuneful and well-controlled bass combined with the octave-to-octave consistency that only a single driver can provide. And unlike most other single driver speakers I have heard there's absolutely no upper midrange shout or treble harshness. Another characteristic that's more difficult to describe (you have to hear it to understand) the bipole ambience. This reminds me of the dipole Magnepans I've owned in the past.

Early on the treble was lacking, but a combination of different internal wiring and speaker cables, toe-in, and breakin time has virtually eliminated this problem. The bipoles do have a limitation in their absolute ability to play loudly - about as much as the 5" woofer high end mini monitors I've heard. I measured this playing a Keb Mo CD, and to my ears the music started to sound congested when the volume at the listening position (10' from the fronts of the speakers) was peaking at about 94dB (94dB is pretty damn loud!). To put it in perspective, the volume limitation isn't an issue with most music, but with some highly dynamic material, like my "Heroic Music for Organ, Brass, and Percussion" disk, I prefer the Pi speakers.

I suppose the bottom line is this: As I rotate through the other speakers I always find myself returning to the bipoles after a few CD's. I would recommend these without reservation for anybody to use in a second system, and if the loudness limitation isn't an issue I would also recommend them as somebody's main (or only) speakers.


Re: FredT -MLTL Bipole speaker impressions [message #21605 is a reply to message #21604] Tue, 27 June 2006 08:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ttan98 is currently offline  ttan98
Messages: 35
Registered: May 2009
Baron
I saw you build many systems over the past few years(I assume), from the Smugmug website I notice you also build the Audio Nirvana system, can you descibe this system. Thanks..

Audio Nirvana Drivers [message #21606 is a reply to message #21605] Tue, 27 June 2006 08:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
FredT is currently offline  FredT
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I built a pair using the 8" drivers in their recommended enclosure, and I didn't like them. This driver sounds very much like a Fostex to me, but with too much energy above 1khz. I added Bob Brines' correction filter, which alleviated the problem some but not enough for my taste. Based on my experience I recommend spending a bit more for Fostex Fe series drivers. Bob Brines might have something to add.

Re: Audio Nirvana Drivers [message #21607 is a reply to message #21606] Tue, 27 June 2006 08:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ttan98 is currently offline  ttan98
Messages: 35
Registered: May 2009
Baron
Many thanks, what is your Pi 1 and Pi 3 speakers based on(ie what design and drivers), and the array speakers you built, how do they sound. The array speakers with so many drivers I strongly suspect the sound coherency is inferior to the full range driver. With that in moind why some people are attracted to array speakers? I have not heard one before, you can enlighten me on this issue...

Re: FredT -MLTL Bipole speaker impressions [message #21608 is a reply to message #21604] Tue, 27 June 2006 10:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shane is currently offline  Shane
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Thanks much, Fred.

Re: Audio Nirvana Drivers [message #21609 is a reply to message #21606] Tue, 27 June 2006 10:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bob Brines is currently offline  Bob Brines
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Location: Hot Springs Village, AR
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I spend some time with a pair of AN6's courtesy of Fred. I put them in a pair of 25 liter BR's and compared them to Fostex FE167E's in the same box. In head-to-head comparison, the AN6's were nowhere near as clear and open as the FE167E's, and the An6's were harsh to boot. Even the build quality of the AN6's is inferior to the Fostex. Finally, I think that the cream colored cone of the Fostex just looks better in my cabinets then the ordinary black cone of the AN6.

I won't be using any AN drivers in my stuff.

Bob


Line Array Speakers [message #21610 is a reply to message #21607] Tue, 27 June 2006 14:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
FredT is currently offline  FredT
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Registered: May 2009
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This probably should be in the array forum, but since you asked I'll respond here. You can hear and actively listen to other good speakers, but you "experince" a well designed line array. The Selah XT-8 is simply in a different league than all the other speakers I have heard. At high volumes you actually feel the bass, much as you do in a live music club environment, but without the distortion. Nothing else can touch its dynamics and clarity, and it's a chamelion when it comes to soundstage. On small scale recordings the soundstage is convincingly intimate, yet on big orchestral pieces it's big. Other speakers rotate through my upstairs system, but only the line arrays stay in the downstairs system. The same is not true of the budget arrays I've built - twelve $4 woofers sounds like one $4 woofer times twelve.

Re: FredT -MLTL Bipole speaker impressions [message #21611 is a reply to message #21604] Tue, 27 June 2006 21:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jim Griffin is currently offline  Jim Griffin
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Registered: May 2009
Master
Fred,

Thanks again for your obervations and acute listening. I'm glad that you like these speakers. They produce an exceptionally nice sound when used within their limits.

Your comments on the power levels of 94 dB peaks at the listening position are close to my calculated output levels under these conditions. At a 10' listening distance you are down about 10 dB sound level from the usual 1 meter SPL rated specification. Remember that the sound is falling at a 6 dB per doubling of distance rate from a point source. If you run the Martin King MLTL spread sheets for 60 watts input to the speaker (30 watts per speaker), you'll find that you are at the Xmax limit of 6 mm for this driver under such conditions. Thus under these conditions, the SPL level produced by the speaker at 1 meter is 106 dB. Hence, at your the listening position you'll measure about 96 dB SPL. This is close to your 94 dB SPL figure.

As you imply, most people usually listen at SPL levels in the 80 to 90 dB value even for loud sound. So anything above that level is at the 'turn that damn thing down' level.

Bottom line is that these speakers will satisfy most listeners in a small to medium sized room but if you are a hard rocker who wishes for high SPLs in a large room, then these speakers may not be for you.

Jim

Re: Line Array Speakers [message #21612 is a reply to message #21610] Wed, 28 June 2006 13:07 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
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Say Fred; those Selah 8's go for about 4K$ in the kit form; is that right?
That looks like about 6.5/7K$ built. That seems to put you in some pretty rarefied territory; at least in my neighborhood. What are your thoughts regarding this type of committment to the Arrays on that spending level compared to what is out there in the same league?
Off hand 4K$ would say get you a pair of well designed two-ways using TAD drivers. I use that as some kind of example.
If you chose to buy used; I can think of some pretty good speaks out there. Is this something that would supercede what is commonly available at that price? Or is this the result of what you can do with whats on the markett as kits regarding sound quality? I don't know if thats clear; maybe I should explain better?
Thanks.

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