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Re: Why won't a single driver speaker do metal? [message #21178 is a reply to message #21086] |
Sun, 07 August 2005 07:06 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/forum/theme/AudioRoundTable/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/forum/theme/AudioRoundTable/images/down.png) |
bob pace
Messages: 4 Registered: May 2009
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Esquire |
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I saw your thread and read it, noting as usual some folks give opinions based on theory instead of experience. To my way of thinking, if you have not listened to a particular speaker, amp, or anything else, you cannot accurately describe how that particular product performs. I just happened to be in Florence last week on business and to make a long story short Ed Shilling was gracious enough to invite me over for a listen to his single driver horn speakers. First of all, those horn speakers will play metal at insane volumes - 108 db peaks measured at 14 feet from the speakers - undistorted. Metal at that volume is not my cup of tea, but they will do it. Ed had 3 amplifiers available to listen to - a First Watt 10 WPC solid state, a Pass 150G 150 WPC solid state, and an Audio Note 7 WPC 300B tube amp. Each amp sounded different, the 150G drove the speakers to the 108db peaks, the 300B amp got them to a respectable 102 db as well. Both solid state amps sounded a bit strident at higher volumes - not overly so, and the 300B seemed to tame that characteristic completely. Overall the 300B was the best - in my opinion - once it warmed for 30 minutes everything just came together. The sound was open, dynamic, and 3 diminsional. The bass is adequate and very tunable by room position with adequate treble extension as well. The bass is not there below say 40 hertz, so if you want the low bass that is more felt than heard, you will need to augment it with a subwoofer. Most folks don't know the difference between real bass below 40 hertz and a bass peak around 60 to 100 hertz and won't miss it. I would compare these to a pair of JM Labs Micro Utopias - high dollar monitor speakers that sell for $6500 a pair and have similar bass response but are not quite as dynamic. I have listened to the Micro Utopias enough to make this statement. As far as looks go, the JM Labs are the hands down winner, although the new veneer finish is very attractive. If I was not already addicted to the lower octive bass and completely satisfied with my current speakers, I would purchase these immedietely and find out if they would work in my listening room. At under $800 a pair, they are quite a bargain in the world of high end audio. This is of course opinion on my part and I don't expect everyone to agree with my opinions. The key difference is I actually listened to the speakers before voicing that opinion.Bob
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Re: Why won't a single driver speaker do metal? [message #21179 is a reply to message #21129] |
Sun, 07 August 2005 07:34 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/forum/theme/AudioRoundTable/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/forum/theme/AudioRoundTable/images/down.png) |
roncla
Messages: 125 Registered: May 2009
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Master |
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Based on my recent back loaded horn modeling, I believe that your speakers are acting like a TL at the lowest frequencies and transition into horn like behavior probably above 100 Hz. Nothing wrong with that design method and it is the one I am exploring for my own back loaded horn speakers. Having the strong undamped TL resonance helps the bass output So very true! Heres a quicky method (accurate, no way, but it gives an idea of a basic BLH low FR concept). Take the tuning length until just before the final flare section. Calculate the TL response based on 1/4 wave action(straight TL), add 10 Hz. This will give the lowest frequency (approx) when wall/floor loaded. Corner loading will mean subtracting 10 hz.(given the proper room dimensions). Even Dr Bruce has stated that 1/8 mouth size had never given the calculated response when corner loaded. Yea, its a rough silly Kentucky windage/SWAG type calculation, but i have found it to be very close in many horn designs. In my designs and sims i see that 1/4 wave gives the lowest initial boost then horn action kicks in then the compressed 1/4 wave action (harmonics) enters into the picture(later in frequency). Thats the upper ripple that so many see at the limits of the horns BW. The 1/4 wave action (upper harmonics) and the horn action combine. And if its designed correctly there will be minimum ripple. ron
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Re: Why won't a single driver speaker do metal? [message #21180 is a reply to message #21178] |
Sun, 07 August 2005 07:57 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/forum/theme/AudioRoundTable/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/forum/theme/AudioRoundTable/images/down.png) |
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Wayne Parham
Messages: 18756 Registered: January 2001
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Illuminati (33rd Degree) |
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When you say, "some folks give opinions based on theory instead of experience", I'd like to make sure you understand that many of the people on this thread have a wealth of experience.Bob Brines made a statement of fact. He said, "Single-driver full-range speakers have a limited dynamic range." This is true of all speakers, but I think what he meant is that single driver speakers are limited more because of their unique characteristics. It wasn't about a particular implementation, it was about any speaker with a single driver. By the way, what was used to come up with those SPL figures you quoted? There is a lot of specific information in your post, so I'm sure you must have this information handy. Point source sound falls off at the rate of 20 log d1/d2, so you can see that 108dB at 14 feet is about 120dB/M - pretty strong stuff. Those are prosound levels, amazing from a 4 inch full range speaker.
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Re: Ok Boys, read this........ [message #21182 is a reply to message #21176] |
Sun, 07 August 2005 08:31 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/forum/theme/AudioRoundTable/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/forum/theme/AudioRoundTable/images/down.png) |
Ed Schilling
Messages: 47 Registered: May 2009
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Baron |
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Ha Ha! Very funny Wayne! Seriously though.....I hope like Hell you guys know that was not the point! He did just "verify" the numbers I have claimed from the beginning! Getting Larry to say something "not true" would be like pulling a donkey down the street by his tail! He would not give his "opinion" on the system....he just reported the readings and what he heard. And yes, Wayne, that was funny to me! You've at least talked with me enough to know for sure that was not the intent of my posting his comments...(he actually typed it all)..I hope everyone else does as well! Ed
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Re: Why won't a single driver speaker do metal? [message #21188 is a reply to message #21180] |
Sun, 07 August 2005 13:06 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/forum/theme/AudioRoundTable/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/forum/theme/AudioRoundTable/images/down.png) |
bob pace
Messages: 4 Registered: May 2009
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Esquire |
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Hey Wayne, My post was to a specific speaker, not a generalization. The statement "some folks give opinions based on theory instead of experience" is based on 25 years of high end audio interactions. Like anything else, you find armchair experts that have not experienced what they are commenting about. I try to keep an open mind and realise that even if something does not make sense from a theory standpoint it does not make that something untrue. The measurements were taken with a Radio Shack analog spl meter at couch level 14 feet from the speakers. Anything over 100db and I had to plug my hears to protect my hearing. I like listing in the 80's to low 90's tops to all types of musics. Concert level playback is not my normal mode of operation, but if you want it - these speakers can do it with that 7 WPC 300B amp. The room size was approximately 17' by 15' - I did not measure the room so this is an approximation. Let me make something perfectly clear - this post was meant to convey a listening experience with the Horn Shoppe Horn speakers from a 4 hour listening session. It was enough to convince me of the special nature of these speakers. Will they work for everyone? I doubt it. Are they worth a try? Absolutely, if your in the market for some phenominal point source speakers that are open, 3 diminsional, and rather dynamic. It was amazing to me how well they worked at Ed's place with basically no tweaking to positioning and cabling. Bob
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Further thoughts on peaks and some clarifying questions [message #21195 is a reply to message #21178] |
Mon, 08 August 2005 01:42 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/forum/theme/AudioRoundTable/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/forum/theme/AudioRoundTable/images/down.png) |
akhilesh
Messages: 1275 Registered: May 2009
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Illuminati (3rd Degree) |
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THanks for your opinion, Bob, more so since you actually listened to the horn shoppe speakers. Could you tell us what frequencies you measured the 108 db peaks at, and what the distortion was at the 108 db peaks? When you say the amps sounded a bit strident, are you sure it was not distortion on the part of the driver? It's unreasonable to expect a 4 inch driver to do 108 db bass peaks (say in the 50 HZ region) without significant distortion, in general. So i don't think anyone would fault Ed's design (which I am sure sounds wonderful, and we would all LOVe to hear) if it "only did 102 db peaks in the 50 Hz region". Doing 102 db peaks with a 300B amp (about 8 watts max) leads me to believe the efficiency of the hornshoppe speaker is around 94-95 db. It is reasonable to expect the driver to do undistorted peaks of frequencies above 100 hz upto maybe 105-110 db, depending on the wattage of the driver. Overall, I don't think Bob Brines & Ed are disagreeing a whole lot. I have actually heard Bob Brines's speakers (almost all his models) and they are very nice. I think they will do 105 db peaks as well, above 100 hz. below that, no, and in fact most single driver systems won't, at least not without increasing distortion. Again, I reiterate, a single drive comparo between bob brines's speakers (based largely on Martin's designs) and Ed Schilling speakers will be awesome. Based on reviews I have read of Horn Shoppe speakers, they probably sound very good too. It will be a real treat to hear a comparison, and to see the differences between them. Again, ED, PLEASE do ship a pair of speakers for the next GPAF, even if you cannot make it. -akhilesh
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Re: Further thoughts on peaks and some clarifying questions [message #21211 is a reply to message #21195] |
Thu, 11 August 2005 13:47 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/forum/theme/AudioRoundTable/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to previous message](/forum/theme/AudioRoundTable/images/down.png) |
bob pace
Messages: 4 Registered: May 2009
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Esquire |
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I can't help you with frequency ranges for the peaks as we were listening to a variety of music. I think we really cranked it for "Suzy Q" and the peaks on the Rat Shack meter were at 108. The "strident" sound is what I typically hear in the treble from alot of solid state amps. The Audio Note 300B tube amp tamed that characteristic completely. I would not say it is distortion, but rather an undue emphasis on treble. Keep in mind this was an ears test for the most part - the SPL meter just provided a reference which I did not really need since my ears already told me "it was loud" louder than I would ever need to listen. The other point about Ed's setup is it is not tweaked. There are no fancy cables or spikes for the speakers or any resonance tuning weights. With the right cable combo and tuning weights you could make these puppies meet your own version of sonic nirvana. Bob
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