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high eff. 3way. [message #19593] Tue, 09 December 2008 11:06 Go to next message
jeff p is currently offline  jeff p
Messages: 16
Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
i have some Pi One Towers that i'm pretty happy with, i'm thinking the time will come when i will want more output from my little 6watt SEP amp. the amp and preamp are here to stay for a while so that means i will need to build more efficient speakers.
the amps like an 8ohm load.

basically i need a little guidance on design, where do i start to think about the design?
should i be using software to model frequency response? what?

i am thinking 3 way would be best.
a 96db dome tweeter or maybe a ribbon, and a also a 10" pro 10 like an eminence alpha to handle the low end because i'd like slimmer cabinet.

i'm not sure about midrange.
i was thinking either two 6.5 to get efficiency up or maybe the 100db Audax 6.5" driver.
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=120&products_id=90

to get the extra eff. from two drivers they have to be wired parallel right? so i would have to find 16ohm drivers. then i also have to decide whether to do TMMW or MTMW.
my room is pretty large (15Wx25Lx9H) hard floors and ceilings, lage rug in front of speakers.

the one thing i don't like about the audax is they might make me need to cross the woofer higher, might that be a problem?


4 Pi system [message #19594 is a reply to message #19593] Tue, 09 December 2008 16:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
spkrman57
Messages: 522
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
Go to the Pi forum section and read on the the 4 pi 2-way system with compression driver/horn and 15" LF driver.

Good Luck with your search!

Ron

Re: high eff. 3way. [message #19595 is a reply to message #19593] Tue, 09 December 2008 16:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jeff p is currently offline  jeff p
Messages: 16
Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
someone at eminence said, no way to get 16ohm alpha6, but wired in series and coupled closely together i could still expect to gain 3db...

Re: high eff. 3way. [message #19596 is a reply to message #19593] Tue, 09 December 2008 16:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18786
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

To get higher efficiency than your little one π Speakers, you're probably going to need horns. One π's are 95dB/2.83v/M, so your goal is to go above that.

There are a handful of speakers that get above 95dB/2.83v/M but not many that go above 100dB/2.83v/M. The tough part is getting this kind of output full range. You can get a single horn to do it over about two octaves, maybe as far as a decade, but the range you need to cover is three decades. To be honest, you won't get 20-20kHz at 100dB/2.83v/M out of any two-way or three-way speaker. You would need at least a four-way horn and the basshorn would be huge.

There are some things to consider though that would probably do what you want. First, forget the 100dB/2.83v/M requirement down low. You can use a horn down to the bottom of the midrange, perhaps upper midbass. That will greatly reduce your size requirements. But you'll have to add subs, in this case. Not a bad thing, 'cause you can smooth room modes using distributed subs.

A compression horn tweeter will give you over 100dB, so will a horn loaded midrange. Those aren't a problem. The bass problem has already been discussed, but here's your next thing to consider. What do you want to do for the top octave?

Compression horns rolloff 6dB/octave starting around 4kHz, so the top octave is usually at least 10dB below the bottom octave. Some horns have collapsing DI that acoustically equalizes the HF on-axis, but this is a fancy way of saying they're beaming real bad in the top octave.

You may choose to live with the collapsing DI, go with a tractrix horn and call it good. Or you might choose to augment the top-octave with a super-tweeter. Either of those design choices will give you several options that will provide good response on-axis through the top-octave.

Another option that might work out for you is more along the lines of what I like to do with horn-loaded speakers. I use their directional control characteristics to advantage in the way of making a uniform pattern. Horns increase output in one direction by focusing the sound in that direction. With careful crossover optimization, driver and horn selection and placement on the baffle, you can make the sound field uniform over a wide range of listening positions. Instead of making the sound best straight on-axis at the expense of all other radiation angles, the speaker designed for uniform directivity sounds good at all angles within a pattern. I like a 90°x40° pattern, because it limits ceiling and side wall reflections yet covers the listening room nicely.

It isn't too hard to make a loudspeaker with a direct radiating midwoofer and 90°x40° horn that will reach 97dB/2.83v/M and provide uniform directivity. This may be enough for you. The three π and four π loudspeakers are examples of such a loudspeaker, as are offerings from AudioKinesis and Earl Geddes.

If you want to reach 100dB/2.83v/M, my suggestion is something with a midhorn and a corner loaded bass bin, more like the seven π loudspeaker. This provides constant directivity and its corner placement enforces toe-in that naturally balances the stereo image over a wide listening area.

You could also make speakers like those designed by Edgar or Fitzmaurice, three-ways that are horn loaded. They aren't designed for uniform directivity, but they will provide the sensitivity you're looking for.

In any of these cases, I suggest using distributed subs as I mentioned earlier. Don't even try to get 100dB/2.83v/M, instead, use 2-4 subwoofer cabinets with plate amps. This will smooth room modes. It's an easier approach to do, and provides better performance, in my opinion.


icon3.gif  Great post! Here is one more idea [message #59421 is a reply to message #19596] Sat, 20 June 2009 00:48 Go to previous message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
Messages: 1275
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
Wayne's post is, as usual, right on.
The critical thing is that it's relatively easy to get 100 db eff over 150 hz. Below that it starts getting difficult.
Using subs is one suggestion. Here are a couple of other practical ones (of course you could always blow pots of money and buy a giant bass horn that is currently manufactured and sold but the ideas below are cheaper):

One thing you may want to consider is to buy a used klipschorn and tinker around with the drivers/midhorn/tweeter section, but use the bass horn. This should get you bass down to 40 hz for sure, if not a bit lower, with eff to over 100 db.
Plus used bass horns that are not working/trashed out are pretty cheap: around a grand at most.

Another option for you to consider is the old Altec VOTT design, that gave bass down to about 50 hz with about 99 db eff (if I remember correctly). This is a combination BR plus front loaded horn.
you could do a 3 way with this set up that will be great. VOTT boxes are a few hundred each at most.


Good luck! Let us know what happens.
-akhilesh
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