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Re: crossover point [message #19529 is a reply to message #19528] Sat, 14 June 2008 12:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zonkers is currently offline  zonkers
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Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
thank you so much for the helpful explainations! i see what you mean about the cone beaming. how does an mtm work though?

this is very enlightening. thank you so much! zonkers

Re: crossover point [message #19530 is a reply to message #19529] Sat, 14 June 2008 16:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Duke is currently offline  Duke
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Registered: May 2009
Grand Master
The two M's of an MTM act almost as one unit, sort of like one big odd-shaped cone (with a gap where the tweeter is) in the vertical plane. Just as a ribbon's pattern is wide in the horizontal plane and narrow in the vertical, so too with the woofers in an MTM. Now the lobing pattern of an MTM is different from what it would be if that were just one big oval woofer, so it's not an exact correspondence, but it's pretty close.

Some manufacturers prefer to go with a TMM layout, as this way there's less beaming in the vertical plane.

In my opinion Tyler Acoustics is doing the MTM right in their Pro Dynamics series - using a horn tweeter whose pattern is wider than it is tall, roughly corresponding to the pattern of the woofers.



Thanks Duke for the information (nt) [message #19531 is a reply to message #19530] Sun, 15 June 2008 07:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Norris Wilson is currently offline  Norris Wilson
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Grand Master
nt

Re: crossover point [message #19532 is a reply to message #19530] Sun, 15 June 2008 22:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zonkers is currently offline  zonkers
Messages: 10
Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
thanks duke, but what does all that mean and how does it work? zonkers

Re: crossover point [message #19533 is a reply to message #19532] Sun, 15 June 2008 22:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zonkers is currently offline  zonkers
Messages: 10
Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
what i mean is -how- does an mtm or tmm do what it does? is the m&m like an array of 2? how do you figure out where to put the 1st "m", 2nd "m" and "t"? also what happens at the crossover from "m" to "t"? sorry for so many questions. i am trying to understand how this works and wanted to be more specific with my questions than just "how does that work". tia, zonkers

Re: crossover point [message #19534 is a reply to message #19533] Mon, 16 June 2008 20:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zonkers is currently offline  zonkers
Messages: 10
Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
hi duke, i hope i am not wearing you out with many silly questions. i read around and i think i have the idea. since the mtm midrange control lobes only cover the midrange and can't work at bass i wonder if the idea extends to bass with something like wwmtmww or wwwwmmt? what do you think? thanks again! zonkers

Re: crossover point [message #19535 is a reply to message #19533] Mon, 16 June 2008 23:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Duke is currently offline  Duke
Messages: 297
Registered: May 2009
Grand Master
Okay, the same phenomenon of cancellation by the time the soundwave gets to the other edge, like we had with a single cone, takes place with the two cones in a dual-woofer format (assuming both woofers are active up to the crossover region). Because the distance between the outer edges of the two cones is much greater than the distance across a single cone, beaming in that dimension sets in at a much lower frequency.

MTM places the two cones farther apart than TMM does, so MTM beams more in the vertical plane (below the crossover frequency) than a TMM does. On the other hand, a TMM puts the effective center for the midrange frequencies physically fairly far below the center of the high frequencies. So, in choosing between the two, I'd look at where the crossover frequency is. If the crossover frequency is around or below 1 kHz, I'd go with a TMM as the ear is not very good at detecting the height of a sound source down that low. But if the crossover is much above 1 kHz, I'd probably go with an MTM.

Now with either one of these formats, assuming a dome T, you will have an even greater radiation pattern discrepancy in the crossover region than if you were only using a single woofer. So, many designers go with a "2.5 way" TMM format - that is, the lower woofer is only active in the bass region, and then it is rolled off well below the main crossover point, while the upper woofer remains active all the way up to the crossover.

Hope this helps.

Duke

Re: crossover point [message #19536 is a reply to message #19534] Mon, 16 June 2008 23:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Duke is currently offline  Duke
Messages: 297
Registered: May 2009
Grand Master
Directivity control in the bass region is hard to get because the physical sizes required are so great. At the link below is a speaker whose widely-spaced woofers are theoretically directional in the vertical plane down to about 130 Hz, but in the horizontal plane they're omnidirectional down there.

An alternative way to get directivity down at low frequencies is to use a dipole or cardioid type enclosure (the former is pretty simple, and the latter is pretty complicated). Dipoles inherently have a figure-8 radiation pattern at low frequencies. The drawback is that they need a lot of equalization to do bass well, unless they are very large.

According to researcher Earl Geddes, radiation pattern control below 500 Hz isn't really necessary in a normal home listening room. Often even getting down to 500 Hz requires tradeoffs.

A loudspeaker designed with a great deal of attention to radiation pattern control is the Gradient Revolution. It's a dipole below 200 Hz, then it's a cardioid (lilly-pad shaped pattern) from 200 Hz to about 2.5 kHz, then it's 120 degrees wide above that point (uses a coaxial tweeter, and the angle of the midrange cone is about 120 degrees). But, it's only about 85 dB efficient - that's one of the tradeoffs.

Duke


Re: crossover point [message #19537 is a reply to message #19535] Tue, 17 June 2008 13:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zonkers is currently offline  zonkers
Messages: 10
Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
thanks for all your help duke! i really appreciate it! i read around some after you got me thinking. i think i understand what you are saying now. when there are two speakers playing they "squish" each other into a wide but not tall spray. thank you for explaining this to me. zonkers

Re: crossover point [message #19538 is a reply to message #19537] Wed, 18 June 2008 00:37 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Duke is currently offline  Duke
Messages: 297
Registered: May 2009
Grand Master
You're quite welcome.

Your "squishing" analogy is quite close, and provides a good mental picture. Actually the pattern doesn't get any wider in the horizontal plane for an MTM, but if we could see it, it would indeed be fat-looking, as if a squishing had occurred.

Duke

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