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Re: Constant directivity tweeter horns and waveguides [message #19483 is a reply to message #19480] Thu, 03 April 2008 14:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Zeno is currently offline  Zeno
Messages: 122
Registered: May 2009
Master
as always thank you kindly for the detailed and informational reply!!

Re: Constant directivity tweeter horns and waveguides [message #19484 is a reply to message #19482] Thu, 03 April 2008 17:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18791
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I've always been more comfortable with iterative approaches too, probably a result of my computer background.

As you approach new ideas for modeling features, please feel free to kick it around here. Sometimes it's easier to roll your sleeves up and dig in on your own, but sometimes it helps to toss ideas around. It would be great to have improved models that included some of the unusual 3D acoustic features that are impossible to describe with a 1D model.

Whatever paths you take, I'm confident you'll be as thorough as usual. I'm very interested in what you come up with.


Re: Constant directivity tweeter horns and waveguides [message #19485 is a reply to message #19474] Thu, 03 April 2008 19:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Norris Wilson is currently offline  Norris Wilson
Messages: 361
Registered: May 2009
Grand Master
Excellent information, thanks for your time in bringing it to us.

I am looking forward to any more information that you might add.

I would love to hear you make a presentation at LSAF along these same lines about horn design.

Norris

Re: Constant directivity tweeter horns and waveguides [message #19486 is a reply to message #19485] Thu, 03 April 2008 22:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18791
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Thanks Norris, kind of you to say.

This year, I'm not giving a talk at LSAF 'cause I'll have my hands full. I'm even needing help, looking for a volunteer to take photos in each room and list the components so we can put them on the LSAF website. With 'lil Eddie running around, at his tender age of 19 months, we'll be doing good just to man the room. Melissa will likely take him swimming and out doing fun stuff like that, and that leaves me to hang out in the room.

Anyway, I'm not the guy to do a talk on horns. I understand them pretty well I think, and have even made a contribution or two. But most of my contributions have been indirect, like the cooling plug. Mostly, I'm an implementer of what I understand to be the best technologies I can find. I'm an engineer, not a scientist. I'm comfortable giving a talk on Ohms law and reactive circuits as applied to crossovers, but that's it. And this year we have Keith Larson giving a presentation on the Smith and Larson measurement system, so that will likely cover many of the same bases, and a few more. http://audioroundtable.com/emoticons/smiley.gif

Re: Constant directivity tweeter horns and waveguides [message #19487 is a reply to message #19483] Mon, 07 April 2008 15:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Randy is currently offline  Randy
Messages: 6
Registered: May 2009
Esquire
I've read on other forums that diffraction is what causes "horn honk" or the "cupped hands" horn coloration. I'm not sure because I've heard it on many horns of different types. All thoughts appreciated.

Randy

Re: Constant directivity tweeter horns and waveguides [message #19488 is a reply to message #19487] Mon, 07 April 2008 17:51 Go to previous message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18791
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I think the thing most often perceived as "horn honk" is uneven amplitude response, particularly an exagerated midrange. It is usually when there is a midrange resonance that boosts a narrow region and then falls off at higher frequency. The horns that are usually considered to be colored are the ones that have some kind of midrange peak that isn't equalized. Said another way, if a horn is made such that there is a peak in sound output that isn't equalized, then that will definitely sound "honky", especially if it's in the midrange, where our ears are most sensitive.

When there's an abrupt change in flare rate in a horn, the discontinuity causes an acoustic reflection back towards the throat. This can be seen as an impedance spike at a frequency depending on the position in the horn. The mouth termination is one source of discontinuity, and it results in an impedance peak at the lower frequency end of the scale. If there are other transitions, they can be seen at higher frequencies.

The backwave reflection causes a resonant condition that results in an impedance increase, and usually an increase in sound output as well. The reflected wave combines with the source wave and produces pipe mode resonances. The frequency, shape and size of the resonances depends on the distance between source and termination, and also on other factors such as resistance and bandwidth, damping and Q.

Most compression tweeter horns have mouth terminations that cause this condition to exist somewhere between 500Hz and 2kHz, depending on the size of the horn. Sometimes a horn isn't well-behaved at the lower end of its range and if it is used too low, it generates a pretty big peak. One should use caution to ensure the crossover point chosen is high enough to avoid this.

Another thing to consider is the power response of the compression driver itself. They're very efficient for a couple of octaves, three at most. Above that, they begin to rolloff. At 2kHz, efficiency of a good 1" compression horn is 40% or so but by 10kHz it is only around 5%. So for example, a 1" compression driver is usually pretty strong from about 1kHz to 4kHz but then response falls 6dB/octave because of diaphragm mass. Output is generally 12dB down in the top octave.

If a horn provides constant directivity, then it will need electrical equalization to compensate for falling power response. Some horns begin to beam at higher frequencies which provides on axis EQ, but off axis falls off very rapidly at high frequencies. Such a horn may sound good directly on axis in an anechoic environment, but most people don't listen in anechoic conditions. Indoors, the reverberent field tracks the power response. So without EQ, the total sound energy in the room is much louder below 4kHz. This condition may contribute to what some identify as horn coloration.

As for diffraction, my experience is that it isn't high on the list of audio annoyances. The one exception is where arrays are used, diffraction slots in the throats of CD horns cause the apparent apex to be different along the horizontal axis than the vertical. I am not at all sure that diffraction is a qualitative problem that adversely affects performance in any other way.

A long time ago, I used to round all the edges of my loudspeakers to prevent edge diffraction. My thinking was it was easy enough to do, so even if the benefits were marginal it was worth doing. But it was only easy to do on painted cabinets. Bending veneers around the corners gave my cabinet makers fits, because sometimes the veener would break as it was applied. So we built cabinets both ways, with rounded edges and without and listened for differences. I listened, the guys building them listened, and we had others listen too. Not a single person could hear a difference. This makes me tend to believe that to focus on edge diffraction as a potential problem might be exaggerated.


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