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Sub placement [message #18565] Tue, 21 February 2006 10:08 Go to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
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Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

We've looked at this before, but I think it is always an interesting topic.

Outdoors, the problem is you have a lot of area to energize. There is no room gain. But you don't have standing wave modes within the walls to worry about either. Just the nodes that might setup between subs, if placed over 1/4λ apart.

Inside a room, the problem is room modes. These are determined by room size and proportion, subwoofer number and position and listener position. Large rooms are typically less problematic where room modes are concerned, because modes shift down in frequency. The larger the room, the more it acts like open space. Smaller rooms generally have more noticeable room mode problems. One solution involves using multiple subs strategically placed to partially cancel peaks and fill in the holes caused by standing wave nodes within the room.

Welti suggests four corner placement or four subs placed at wall midpoints. Geddes prefers random placement. I tend towards a staggered symmetrical approach, one placing subs in different places in all three planes but symmetrical with respect to the listener. Each placement method has its strengths and weaknesses, and many of them are room specific.

What works best for you?


Re: Sub placement [message #18566 is a reply to message #18565] Tue, 21 February 2006 16:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hurdy_gurdyman is currently offline  hurdy_gurdyman
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Registered: May 2009
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Wayne (or anyone else),

What would you consider to typically be the best location for a single sub in a mid-sized room?

Dave

Re: Sub placement [message #18568 is a reply to message #18566] Wed, 22 February 2006 11:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18787
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

That's a tough one, as best location is really room specific. One thing I'd suggest is that you don't crossover the sub to the mains but allow them all to overlap. This will provide multiple bass sources which will help smoooth room modes.


Re: Sub placement [message #18569 is a reply to message #18566] Wed, 22 February 2006 15:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
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I keep mine asymmetrical, and close to mains.
This eliminates accentuation of nulls on any one frequency.
-akhilesh

Re: Sub placement [message #18573 is a reply to message #18569] Thu, 23 February 2006 08:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18787
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I think I'd put the sub where the mains and the room reflections combined to form the deepest cancellation notch. Wherever that is, it's probably the best place to put the sub.


We've discussed this before [message #18574 is a reply to message #18565] Thu, 23 February 2006 10:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Earl Geddes is currently offline  Earl Geddes
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Master
I did a simulation for a small room and one to several subs and looked at the frequency response and the spatial average. Once one reached four subs the average was as good as it gets, and it made no difference where the subs were placed just so long as they wern't clustered together. I also found in this study that at least one of the subs needs to be up off the floor.

With three subs you could get a comparable quality, but placement became more critical. One in a corner, one along a side wall and the last one 2/3 the way up to the ceiling along another side wall. This worked pretty well.

In this same study I allowed each of the woofers a totally independent amplitude and phase and let a computer find the "ideal" for each sub. The most interesting thing was that if I took the three woofers and made the amplitude and phase at two of them completely random, I got about the same result as the complex adaptive one. But think of the advantage. The complex adaptive one has to be set for each room, but the random approach works the same in any room.

I'll leave the concept of making a random filter as a task for the reader (Here is a hint: its called a decorrealtion filter).

Re: Sub placement [message #18576 is a reply to message #18573] Thu, 23 February 2006 10:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
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YEah, Wayne.
Makes good sense.
-akhilesh

Re: We've discussed this before [message #18577 is a reply to message #18574] Thu, 23 February 2006 11:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18787
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Welti suggests a handful of specific placements, four corners, four wall midpoints, etc. I know you propose random placement. I would expect the ideal locations to be room specific, with different wall ratios and features like entrances and halls lining up the standing wave nodes in different places. But I'm not sure random would necessarily stagger the nodes properly. I would guess some random placements would do it, but others might not. How can you be comfortable that random placement will always give the desired results? To be honest, I'm not sure that it does.


Re: We've discussed this before [message #18578 is a reply to message #18577] Thu, 23 February 2006 11:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Earl Geddes is currently offline  Earl Geddes
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As I said with enough subs it doesn't matter where you put them.

Re: We've discussed this before [message #18579 is a reply to message #18578] Thu, 23 February 2006 12:46 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18787
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I agree, with enough subs it doesn't matter where they go. In a sense, I suppose this is all academic if you use enough subs. It may be that two subs in addition to two woofers in the mains works pretty well. The more you add, the smoother response becomes. By the time you've reached three or four subs, you've reached a point of diminishing returns and it also becomes less relevant where they are placed.

In Welti's study, several placement configurations were tested. A single sub was used and placed in various locations. Pairs and groups were also tested, with group sizes of 3, 4, 5 and even large groups like 10 or 20.

The results were pretty clear, that the most uniform response was obtained with large random placement, subs in each corner or subs at the midpoint of each wall. The large random group placement was found to be good, but no better than the placement in each corner or at the midpoints of each wall.

I think it is important to notice the large random placement had two unique features, one being the number of subs and the other being their random placement. In this case, I think the high number was more important than the placement because there was just so many of them.


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