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Re: Thought experiment & why sonic indistinguishability is not a bad thing [message #18396 is a reply to message #18395] Wed, 11 January 2006 19:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Actually Ak that is true; you did address that issue, but the issue of interest really is the easy dismissal of the argument by citing bias and influence as the cause of people preffering one system over another. This aspect of the debate begs the question since by definition then there are no valid personal opinions regarding the sound of electronic equipment. They are all manipulated by pre-concieved explanations. And still we run up against the possibility that there really is some difference not accesssd by the scopes and distortion meters. You know as a scientist that there are no absolutes.

I didn't know about the re-structuring of the Strads and maybe that makes that argument moot. But what about say a Steinway Concert Grand?
And yes; most musicians do have terrible systems; I always guessed it had to do with a lack of interest in listening casually. It will never approach real music so what is the need? However it also may have something to do with the notorious frugality of most musicians; who generally are tighter than snare drums with a buck.

Re: Thought experiment & why sonic indistinguishability is not a bad thing [message #18397 is a reply to message #18396] Thu, 12 January 2006 07:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bob Brines is currently offline  Bob Brines
Messages: 186
Registered: May 2009
Location: Hot Springs Village, AR
Master

I don't know that the discussion the the destruction of the great old violins is irrelevant. We still have to deal with reproducing exactly what was laid down on the recording. I vote for SS or tubes like the amp Jef Larson built for me as being most honest. But then, if something else adds "live" or whatever else that adds to one's enjoyment of the music, go for it.

As for pianos, the history is different from the history of strings. Concert hall have always employed the latest and greatest pianos, relegating the old ones to museums. Today, even period performance forte-pianos are almost always copies, not originals.

The evolution of the piano has been on on making the instrument louder in order to keep up with the larger, louder orchestras and the ever larger concert halls. The piano of Mozart's day had 66 keys. Extra bass notes kept getting added to increase the size of the sounding board and therefore louder. The modern grand piano has 88 keys and goes down to A=28 Hz, but the Bosendorfer model 290, the "Imperial Concert Grand", has 97 keys an goes down to C=16 Hz. While a handful of composers have actually use the bottom notes, that's not why there are there. They are there to make the piano louder.

Bob


Re: Thought experiment & why sonic indistinguishability is not a bad thing [message #18398 is a reply to message #18396] Thu, 12 January 2006 08:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hurdy_gurdyman is currently offline  hurdy_gurdyman
Messages: 416
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
>However it also may have something to do with the notorious frugality of most musicians; who generally are tighter than snare drums with a buck.
Re: Thought experiment & why sonic indistinguishability is not a bad thing [message #18399 is a reply to message #18397] Thu, 12 January 2006 08:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hurdy_gurdyman is currently offline  hurdy_gurdyman
Messages: 416
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
It seems like the history of most modern musical instruments has been to make them louder. I have examples of different historical instruments (origional and/or replicas) of the instruments I play, including fiddle (violin to you educated folks), banjo, mandolin, guitar and bagpipes. Over the last couple of centuries they have all gotten louder. Each new innovation has been to make the instrument louder so it can be heard better in an orchestra (even a four piece one). Unfortunately, all the other instruments are doing the same evolution. The drawback (sacrifice?) of all this is that the instruments get brighter and harsher sounding. An example would be the banjo (all banjo jokes aside). It started out with a gourd for a body and a fretless neck. This gave a nice mellow and thumpy sound. After a while someone replaced the gourd with a round wooden cheese box because it was sturdier and would take a beating better. It was noticed it became louder as well. Within a 100 year period all kinds of metal stuff was added, as well as harder wood, because each innovation made the instrument louder. It also made the instrument brighter and more metalic sounding. Frets were added, which added more brightness. Listen to a 1920's Gibson Mastertone like most Bluegrass banjos are patterned after, then listen to a 1850's minstrel banjo, then listen to an origional type gourd banjo (banjar). They don't even sound like the same class of instument. The modern one is almost unpleasant to listen to intimately.
This seems to be similar to the evolution of the other instruments I'm very familiar with. I prefer the old styles for shear listening pleasure, just like I still enjoy tube amps and speakers that don't burn my ears off with etched detail.

Sorry about the rant, but it's one of my pet peeves with music today and this seemed like a good place to vent.

Dave

Re: Thought experiment & why sonic indistinguishability is not a bad thing [message #18400 is a reply to message #18395] Thu, 12 January 2006 08:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18784
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Interesting information about Stradivarius violins. I didn't know that, and it prompted me to do a little looking around about them. Thanks for the info.

Re: Thought experiment & why sonic indistinguishability is not a bad thing [message #18401 is a reply to message #18399] Thu, 12 January 2006 08:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18784
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Interesting info about banjos and banyars. Makes sense.


More on old instruments [message #18402 is a reply to message #18399] Thu, 12 January 2006 09:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bob Brines is currently offline  Bob Brines
Messages: 186
Registered: May 2009
Location: Hot Springs Village, AR
Master
Sigh, ain't it the truth.

My chosen instrument is the recorder. Due to the physics of the instrument, it could not be made louder. The new fangled transverse flute could and by 1740 or so, the recorder ceased to exist in art music. There have been a few pieces written for recorder in the late 1900's, mainly on commission from modern recorder players who owe their artistic lives to the revival of baroque period instrument performances.

To give you an idea of the relative power of various instruments, Bach's Brandenburg Concerto #2 of 1721 uses solo recorder, oboe, violin and trumpet! and a chamber orchestra, and #4 uses two recorder and violin. But as early as 1728, Vivaldi mutes the strings in the recorder concerto RV442, published as a flute concerto Op10 #5, RV434.

As Dave says about banjos, give a listen to recorders, baroque flutes ( the same basic sound persisted up to Beethoven's time) and modern flutes.

Bob




Re: Thought experiment & why sonic indistinguishability is not a bad thing [message #18403 is a reply to message #18401] Thu, 12 January 2006 09:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Nice stuff; this is the purpose of forums; to elucidate and educate and these posts fill both requirements I could read this stuff all the time and be happy.
One last thing; has anyone read or been made aware of any studies using current methodologies to measure period instruments and compare their sonic attributes to modern examples? I think I read something ahwile back regarding a university study dealing with that issue.
Dave; I play also and thats how I know about cheap musicians; join the club!

Cool link Wayne, and esp one para [message #18404 is a reply to message #18400] Thu, 12 January 2006 10:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
Messages: 1275
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
"In practice, quite small changes in the arching, thickness and mass of the individual plates can result in big changes in the resonant frequencies of the violin, which is why no two instruments ever sound exactly alike. The multi-resonant response leads to dramatic variations in the amplitudes of individual partials for any note played on the violin. "
Clearly indicates that viol;ins that sound different MEASURE very different.
-akhilesh



Re: Thought experiment & why sonic indistinguishability is not a bad thing [message #18405 is a reply to message #18395] Thu, 12 January 2006 10:40 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
Messages: 1275
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
"Among classical musicians, some of the finest artists have some of the most awful stereos, and I don't use that word lightly."

You are right, Bob. They focus on CONTENT, to the total excusivity of PRESENTATION. Many audiophiles have been accused of focusing too much on presentation (in other words the system and how it reporduces) and ignoring the content. Musicians tend to swing the other way, and are relatively indifferent to fidelity of the reeproducing system.

Good point
-akhilesh

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