Home » Audio » Speaker » Updated the crossovers on my K-orns to spec
Updated the crossovers on my K-orns to spec [message #18374] Sun, 01 January 2006 22:37 Go to next message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
Messages: 1275
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
Hi Everyone,
I sent my 1978 k-horn AA xovers to Bob Crites, of Arkansas, to upgrade to original spec.
bob uses GE polyprop in oil caps, and checks the chokes, etc, to make sure the xover is running to original spec.
Well i expected some difference, since they say the original oil caps go bad after 20 years, and mine were 27 years old.
The difference was actually quite significant.
whereas earlier the k-horns sounded a boit muddled and not very coherent, they now sound really good.
THe music seems more coherent, the highs seem a lot better.
I really enjoyned listening to thm tonight, driven by a 2a3 SET.
TO all who own older -horns, if you havenlt updated the xover, it makes a LARGE difference.
-akhilesh

Re: Updated the crossovers on my K-orns to spec [message #18375 is a reply to message #18374] Mon, 02 January 2006 08:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hurdy_gurdyman is currently offline  hurdy_gurdyman
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Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
akhilesh,

Congrats on the K-horn update. I've always wanted a pair of those speakers. Maybe someday...

BTW, don't mention on the Klipsch Forum that you are driving them with a tube SET. You'll get roasted.

Dave

Re: Updated the crossovers on my K-orns to spec [message #18376 is a reply to message #18375] Mon, 02 January 2006 11:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
Messages: 1275
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
HI Dave,
Yeah. I love them cos they are stock 1978's, and it's like owning a classic. (alnico magnets, etc)
But after the crossover update (i wouldn;t call it an uopgrade, just an update since they are basically performing to original spec), I can actually hear what Paul klipsch heard when he passed these.
BTW, I heard a rumor someplace that these were voiced with a 2a3 amp.
I am using a cheaop chinese BEZ amp 2a3, with a 6j7 driver tube.
The sound is very nice.
I also have a dynaco st35 clone that I will switch...that;s an 18 watter BUt frankly, 3.5 watts is WAYY more than i need, cos that gives me upto about 108 db, and i only lsiten at 85-90 db in my music room.
They do sound a lot cleaner after the ctrossovers were rebuilt.
Bob Crites did a great job, and is reasonable.
I feel lucky to have found these khorns about 4 years ago, in basically mint condition, sibngle owner. THe guy couldnot sleep, becuase he had owned them since 1978, and had listened to them for 20+ years.
I assured him they would be in good hands. These are great speakers.
no other word for it.
Great. What an awesome and elegant design.
Love em.
-akhilesh


Re: Updated the crossovers on my K-orns to spec [message #18377 is a reply to message #18376] Tue, 03 January 2006 17:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
There's an interview with Paul Klipsch in SP where he says the K's were voiced with a Brook Amp. Which begs the question whether an amp should be voiced at all? I believe all the good speakers were voiced with a specific amp but I think on this forum some may quibble with the whole concept. What do you think; AK??

Re: Updated the crossovers on my K-orns to spec [message #18378 is a reply to message #18377] Fri, 06 January 2006 11:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
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Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
HI John,
HAppy New year to you!
I think if you are using tube amps, then these perform differently enough that one should specify what they were voiced. I believe most solid state amps are soundless, and hence it doesn;t really amtter what you "voice them with".

The Brook was a push pull 2a3 if I remember. THe one I use is a SE 2a3 amp. I don't believe overall amps add too much of a sonic signature, as long as they are well executed. But they are fun hardware to play with! and sometimes good tube amps add pleasant distortions! I have a lot of tube amps and love them. They do somehow make the music sound more involving than solid state. probably by blunting out harshness.
-akhilesh

Re: Updated the crossovers on my K-orns to spec [message #18379 is a reply to message #18378] Fri, 06 January 2006 12:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Happy Holidays to you AK! Blunting out the harshness...you may get a citation from the audio engineering police for that statement.

Re: Updated the crossovers on my K-orns to spec [message #18380 is a reply to message #18378] Fri, 06 January 2006 14:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bob Brines is currently offline  Bob Brines
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Registered: May 2009
Location: Hot Springs Village, AR
Master
Exactly!

When I commissioned my tube amp, I had a long discussion with the designer (Jef Larson) about what I wanted to hear. We talked about SET and P-P and different colorations. I finally said that I wanted as honest an amp as he could do for the price. Jef presented me with an amp that sounds exactly like my Yamaha HT receiver, except that it is a bit softer around the edges. The tubes also seem to image a bit deeper and blacker, but it's real hard to compare at this level.

Would we like to get Earl Geddes involved in a discussion of the importance of amps in the audio chain?

Bob


Tube amps versus SOLID state [message #18381 is a reply to message #18380] Sat, 07 January 2006 10:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
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Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
Sounds good Bob!
I think there are 2 schools of thought:

a) A solid state amp that is well designed (read like 90% or more of them) will add no AUDIBLE signature of it's own. I agree with this.

b) Tube amps do something "magical" to the music, well some of them do, and make it sound more involving. I agree with this too. They do this by adding sonic signatures of their own, best measured by increased euphonic distortion and frequency aberrations that make "voices clearer" or "instruments better separated". Often, the effect is subtle.
For example, if you heard the old zen amp I had (decware zen se-84C), in my opinion it was a thinnish sounding amp, but it certainly made voices (esp. women;s voices) sound better. I have heard Wayne Parham remark that a couple of times, spontaneously, when we switched amps and changed noting else, keeping volume control approx constant.
Again, in my opinion, that decware zen adds its own sonic signature.
So, I agree with b) as well (note that neither a nor b are mutually exclusive).

Now, we need to ask ourselves: what is my goal? If it is ti get tehcleanest possible reporduction (HI FIDELITY), then one approach is to make EACH component in the signal chain add NO sonic signature. Soi, if I did that, I would have a cd player, very small interconnects, a solid state amp, shortest possible speaker wires with minimal LCR, and then...ahh the speakers: These are hardest to control. But if I could, I'd buy the speaker with the FLATTEST anechoic freq curve, the lowest possible distortion, and then treat my room so I got all of this at my listening position. IF I did all of this, then I would get the true recording, and all my music quality would depend on the quality of the recording.

The SECOND approach is: Buy imperfect components that somehow "mesh" together, often by cancelling out each other, and adding euphonic distortions, etc, and somehow make the whole sound musical. Often, they may actually make poorly recorded material sound more "natural" and also counter room issues.
I believe ALL tube amp owners follow this approach (whether they admit to it or realize it or not)! It's fun. and can result in suprprising good sound, not to mention a collection of fun TUBE amps.

As one of my friends said, it beats chasing women, drinking & gambling, a a clean hobby.

SO it;s really a matter of choice. I hope these comments can frame a debate on this issue, though there may be NO DEBATE: some folk will espouse the first, clinical approach, described above, while others will follow the second "muddly" approach.
The discord arises when both camps claim superiority in achieving high fidelity: in my opinion the first camp is better able to achieve hi fidelity, but you gotta ask yourself, how muhc fun is tat verus messing with tubes and vintage/single drivers?

-akhilesh



Re: Tube amps versus SOLID state [message #18382 is a reply to message #18381] Sat, 07 January 2006 11:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
It's been my experience that all amps do things to the sound. I wouldn't try to define what it is they do or how they do it though; seems to me there are way too many variables to form a confident analysis.
Thats why most guys serious about the music tend to shy away from all this generalisation concerning sound. There just doesn't seem to be a basis for describing absolutes.
Try comparing an old Threshold Stasis amp with a modern SS amp; huge difference. This topic is like quicksand.

Re: Tube amps versus SOLID state [message #18383 is a reply to message #18382] Mon, 09 January 2006 10:37 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
Messages: 1275
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
I'm serious about the music.
I meant modern solid state amps.
I have yet to see a scietifically valid study that shows that solid state amps do AUDIBLE things to the sound. Perhaps Earl ( scientist who spends his time in this area) can comment and point us to some data?
-akhilesh

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