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Re: Compressiondrivers in general [message #17939 is a reply to message #17933] Tue, 07 June 2005 03:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Martin Goedeke is currently offline  Martin Goedeke
Messages: 5
Registered: May 2009
Esquire
"My studies have shown that compression drivers have no perceivable nonlinear distortions at any level - even 124 dB."

Does this include behaviour under power at relatively low frequencies? You cross a 1" exit driver at around 900Hz-1kHz which is considdered very low in pro-sound circles. How does the loading of an OS compare to say an exponential (or others) for high-SPL use (assuming same mouth area)?

Re: Compressiondrivers in general [message #17940 is a reply to message #17939] Tue, 07 June 2005 07:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Earl Geddes is currently offline  Earl Geddes
Messages: 220
Registered: May 2009
Master
Our study of distortion had a crossover at 1000 Hz. Remember that in a Home Theater one would never even come close to the SPL's that these devices are capable of. No, I don't think that nonlinear distortion is an issue at all in a non-pro application.

In sound reinforcment the situation is clearly different. One is always trying to operate these devices at their upper limit. So I would not take a 1" Comp-Driver down to 900 Hz. In most of my designs for pro, I use a 2" driver down to 1.6 kHz or so and then there are sometimes three of them per cabinet. The pro world and the home world are quite different.

Loading of a waveguide, or horn, is a totaly over-blown concept. For all practical purposes any shape with the same throat and mouth areas will have about the same loading. Some may have a little more somewhere and another a little more somewhere else, but they will all be within about 1 dB of each other. I pay no attention what-so-ever to loading. I only care about wavefront formation, internal reflections and diffraction and the resulting polar response. I can easily EQ any "loading" differences, but I cannot correct any of these other properties after the fact - they must be corrected in the design.


Re: Compressiondrivers in general [message #17944 is a reply to message #17940] Tue, 07 June 2005 07:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Martin Goedeke is currently offline  Martin Goedeke
Messages: 5
Registered: May 2009
Esquire
Interresting. The lowest crossover would be determined by power handling and diaphragm Vd then I presume.

So one gets 1.4"-2" drivers that have a nearly planar wavefront or correctly curved wavefront at the throat to enter into a (presumably, or at least in one direction) narrow dispersion horn. Any suggestions as to suitable drivers? (The BMS 4550 is known to be a very, very efficient driver that can be crossed very low for instance and outperforms for eg the B&C DE700 acording to some German designers but you have commented in response to Tom Danley somewhere that they don't strike you as suitable)

3 large format compression drivers per cabinett would be some very narrow dispersion waveguide like in a line-array presumably?

Re: OS waveguides [message #17945 is a reply to message #17903] Tue, 07 June 2005 08:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Earl Geddes is currently offline  Earl Geddes
Messages: 220
Registered: May 2009
Master
Wayne

Yes, you are correct. I have done a lot of work in this area.

Each desired polar response dictates a mouth wavefront shape. This seems obviuos, right. The OS waveguide will only ever yield an axi-symmetric wavefront and hence axi-symmetric polar pattern. To me this is nearly ideal since that is the pattern that all piston drivers have (except some obscure ones - ovals, square). So matching waveguide directivity to a piston dictates an OS waveguide.

But with multiple piston drivers at low frequencies a non-axisymmetric pattern could be achieved which would require a different waveguide. There are two possibilities here; prolate speriodal; and Ellipsoidal. The first is rectangular and the other is elliptical in cross section. In fact the OS wavguide is a special case of the Ellipsoidal. These three waveguides all require different shapes at the throat - rectangular, elliptical and circular. It is possible to design an adapter, but this is less than ideal. Ideally the phase plug should create the proper shape at the compression drivers exit aperature. Hence a specific phase plug for a specific application.

I applied for a patent on interchangable phase plugs several years ago. After much discussion with the USPTO, it looks like it will be issued within the next year.



Re: Compressiondrivers in general [message #17946 is a reply to message #17944] Tue, 07 June 2005 08:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Earl Geddes is currently offline  Earl Geddes
Messages: 220
Registered: May 2009
Master
"Interresting. The lowest crossover would be determined by power handling and diaphragm Vd then I presume"

Correct - thats the determining set of factors, but its really the Vd required at the maximum expected SPL. If this can be accomodated then the driver is fine.

"Any suggestions as to suitable drivers? (The BMS 4550 is known to be a very, very efficient driver that can be crossed very low for instance and outperforms for eg the B&C DE700 acording to some German designers)"

Strange how German designers find German products supperior to Italian ones! For the most part I find the contrary - I like and use B&C compression drivers and I have tested some BMS units that were pretty bad, some are better. But honestly, most drivers are about the same. Take them appart! Do any of them look any different? You can practically interchange the parts. I use B&C because they work as good as much more expensive drivers (like TAD, JBL, etc.) at a fraction of the cost. Why pay for a brand name when there is no perceptable audible improvement?

I am not prone to buy a brand name as I know enough to be able to sort out good from bad, and I can, and have, tested a wide variety of these devices. Simply stated - brand does not buy you quality. Some models of each brand are good and some are not so good. In general, I have found B&C to be the very consistant at a low price - a very good value.

I use the B&C DE25, now the DE250 and I have tested more than a half dozen competitors. Some are comparable in performance, butnot in price, and none are comparable in price/performance, which is why I still use the DE25.




Re: Compressiondrivers in general [message #17947 is a reply to message #17946] Tue, 07 June 2005 09:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Martin Goedeke is currently offline  Martin Goedeke
Messages: 5
Registered: May 2009
Esquire
The designer (Audio Zenit) uses an Italian OEM (not the usual suspects though) for most of his cone drivers and the particular comparisson was that on similar horns the two compression drivers mentioned were put up against one another on a measurement basis (crossed @ 1kHz on top of a loud 2x8" horn) and the BMS was apparently an obvious choice (a 1" with apparently more Vd than many 2" exit drivers)

BMS does use a different topology in all fairness (I take it your dissapointment was with the 2" co-ax) and their drivers tend to be crossable very low.

18Sound goes on about a phase plug they use (in the 1480 and 2080 esp) which seem to be very well behaved in combination with their waveguides. Is their work related to yours?

Re: Compressiondrivers in general [message #17948 is a reply to message #17947] Tue, 07 June 2005 10:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Earl Geddes is currently offline  Earl Geddes
Messages: 220
Registered: May 2009
Master
Since drivers differ in regard to the way they perform on a horn, I would never consider such a comparison valid since on another horn the results might be completely different. I prefer to see data on a plane wave tube.

My disapointment was with the coax which was obominable at the crossover. There single diaphragm drivers are about the same as everyone elses.

I am not aware of what 18 sound has done, I worked with B&C. Perhaps my work leaked out, but thats OK since the concepts are patented so it won't matter how they got the idea if its the same as mine.

I have found that most claims in this biz are meaningless. Big claims, little difference.



Re: Compressiondrivers in general [message #17949 is a reply to message #17947] Tue, 07 June 2005 10:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Earl Geddes is currently offline  Earl Geddes
Messages: 220
Registered: May 2009
Master
I could not find anything about a phase plug on the 18Sound web site. How did you come by this information?

Re: Compressiondrivers in general [message #17950 is a reply to message #17948] Tue, 07 June 2005 13:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Martin Goedeke is currently offline  Martin Goedeke
Messages: 5
Registered: May 2009
Esquire
I remember reading about the "patent pending" phase plug in other datasheets, so perhaps they changed that.

http://www.eighteensound.com/pdf/ND1060.pdf.

Re: Compressiondrivers in general [message #17957 is a reply to message #17950] Thu, 09 June 2005 14:37 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Earl Geddes is currently offline  Earl Geddes
Messages: 220
Registered: May 2009
Master
Yea, I see that on their data sheet. That could mean anything, but I will look it up on USPTO.gov.

Thanks

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