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OS waveguides [message #17896] Thu, 02 June 2005 17:09 Go to next message
Rapid is currently offline  Rapid
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Registered: May 2009
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Hello!
I've read a few pages in Earl Geddes acoustic waveguide theory paper from 1989. It says that the oblate spheroidal waveguide requires a wavefront that is planar axisymmetric and it's found at the end of a properly designed phase plug or emitted by a vibrating circular piston.

I wonder which devices would give a planar axisymmetric wavefront except for compression drivers? Ribbons (but I guess it can't be rectangular)? Other speakers? What does a dome tweeter give?

I haven't taken any courses in acoustics (but is M.sc in EE), so I don't understand most of the things in the paper Anyway, it's interesting to read and try to understand.

/Mattias

Re: OS waveguides [message #17903 is a reply to message #17896] Thu, 02 June 2005 22:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
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Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I'm sure Earl will chime in, but I wanted to interject one thing that he and I talked about in this regard. Most agree that the phase plug should be matched to the horn. Instead, there are a handful of common shapes installed in most compression drivers, such as those using radial or annular ring slits. It would be better to have a variety of interchangeable phase plugs for different applications. This doesn't address your post; Earl would be best to discuss his papers. But it is germane in the context of a "properly designed phase plug."


Re: OS waveguides [message #17904 is a reply to message #17903] Fri, 03 June 2005 02:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rapid is currently offline  Rapid
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Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
Thanks! I'm not sure about 1" drivers but in the JBL 2445 you could remove the phaseplug, so maybe it's possible to build one that's better and change it?

Re: OS waveguides [message #17905 is a reply to message #17896] Fri, 03 June 2005 07:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Earl Geddes is currently offline  Earl Geddes
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Hi

Glad that you could get something out of my paper. The book, which is updated and written ten years after the paper, does a far better job at explaining things.

You are pretty much correct that a compression driver can actually create a flat planar wavefront. The first source that we tried however was a flat honeycomb piston rom Panasonic. Worked just as expected. A conical diapragm does not give a flat wavefront at the troat and as such the waveguide deos not work well without a phase plug. A dome is an axisymmetric source, but not planar, as such it will not work as well as the flat piston.

When the source is not planar then the performance is very hard to predict since the non-planar aspects will excite the detrimental higher order modes.

I should also point out that current phase plug designs do not really give flat planar wavefronts either. Thats because of an error in the design asumptions made by Bob Smith from whose work the current phase plug designs originate. I have a patent pending on a correction to the design which would achive a lat wavefront. I also have a patent pending on the use of interchangable phase plugs in a compression driver.

I've been doing a lot of work in this area in the last couple of years. I think that my speakers can attest to the benifits of that work.

Earl

Re: OS waveguides [message #17918 is a reply to message #17905] Sat, 04 June 2005 13:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rapid is currently offline  Rapid
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Hello!
A few more questions: Would ribbons work in an OS waveguide? Would that require the diaphragm to be circular? Is there any disadvantage of using ribbons (if it works)?

Thanks for taking your time and answering!


Mattias

Re: OS waveguides [message #17927 is a reply to message #17918] Sun, 05 June 2005 08:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Earl Geddes is currently offline  Earl Geddes
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An OS waveguide is axisymmetric, so the source needs to be axisymetric.
There are waveguides which would work with a ribbon, like Prolate spheriodal or Elliptic cylinder. The disadvantage of a ribbon is that they are low efficiency and expensive while offering no real advantage. That said some people in Europe have used waveguides on ribbons, but then they changed to compression drivers for the reasons that I mentioned.

Compressiondrivers in general [message #17931 is a reply to message #17927] Sun, 05 June 2005 15:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rapid is currently offline  Rapid
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Chancellor
I see, devices which give axisymmetric and plane waves doesn't seem easy to find. A compressiondriver has like 105dB sensitivity while the 15" bass lies in the 96-99dB region. I'm thinking the extra sensitivity of the compressiondriver isn't needed since it'll have to be attenuated in the crossover anyway. Is it possible to improve the compressiondriver (more linear?) but sacrificing some sensitivity? But I guess building/improving compressiondrivers is out of the scope for a DIY:er

Cheers,
Mattias

Re: Compressiondrivers in general [message #17933 is a reply to message #17931] Sun, 05 June 2005 21:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Earl Geddes is currently offline  Earl Geddes
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Registered: May 2009
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"devices which give axisymmetric and plane waves doesn't seem easy to find"

Quit the contrary they are the most common sources for waveguides - compression drivers.

"A compressiondriver has like 105dB sensitivity while the 15" bass lies in the 96-99dB region. I'm thinking the extra sensitivity of the compressiondriver isn't needed since it'll have to be attenuated in the crossover anyway"

All of which is a good thing. Sensitivity is relatively unimportant - unless its really low - its Max SPL that matters. And a compression driver has lots of that. Sure a 1" tweeter would work on a waveguide, they work fine, but they suffer from limited LF capability and really loose it at higher SPL's. I also use the high sensitivity to advantage in my passive crossovers with the resistor pad for lower the sensitivity. This makes the driver look almost like a purely resistive load, which is ideal for passive crossovers.

"Is it possible to improve the compressiondriver (more linear?) but sacrificing some sensitivity?"

My studies have shown that compression drivers have no perceivable nonlinear distortions at any level - even 124 dB. So I would say that a compression driver is just about the ideal HF source. And, of course, this is what I use. It is not a coincidence.

But compression drivers on horns have a deserved reputation for poor sound quality. I fixed this problem and now consider them to be the best available source for HF response - even for audiophile loudspeakers.


Re: Compressiondrivers in general [message #17934 is a reply to message #17933] Mon, 06 June 2005 02:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rapid is currently offline  Rapid
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Registered: May 2009
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Hello Earl!
Yes, your speakers are very interesting. By the way, do you have any retailer in Europe? When I was saying more linear I meant smoother frequencyresponse, or that's mostly determined by the waveguide?

Regards,
Mattias

Re: Compressiondrivers in general [message #17936 is a reply to message #17934] Mon, 06 June 2005 06:58 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Earl Geddes is currently offline  Earl Geddes
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Basically I don't have dealers for my speakers anywhere. I build them here and sell them from the web. This is what allows me to keep the prices low.

In discussions of this sort it is essential that we delineate linear distortions from non-linear distortions. Frequency response aberations are linear.

The horn or waveguide dominates the frequency response of the system, although there are a couple of driver effects. One is the resonance of air arround the voice coil - this needs to be controlled - and at higher frequencies there are diaphragm resonances. But basically compression drivers are far flatter devices than piston sources. This is because of the high damping both acoustically and electro-mechanically.



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