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First-order tweeter crossovers [message #16388] Thu, 15 April 2004 07:20 Go to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18783
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)
Any of you guys running first-order tweeter crossovers?

I've built several loudspeakers over the years, and many of them have used first-order crossovers. There are some distinct advantages for home use, not the least of which is cost. They generally sound pretty good too, when you don't have banks and banks of loudspeakers to try to keep phased.

But I always seem to poof the tweeters. I mean, over about 10 or 20 watts, the tweeters just eventually go "phoop". Not a lot of power, really, and one minute everything sounds great and the next, no tweeter. It just disappears, like a fuse.

Seems like cone tweeters and domes work OK with first-order filters. They aren't really designed for all that much power anyway. Midrange and woofer cones are always good with first-order, or even no crossover at all. But compresson drivers don't like these single-cap crossovers very much. And ribbons, you can't even think about first-order. You can actually be using a higher-order crossover and just think about the mere possibility of a first-order and the ribbon will blow. They really don't like 'em.

I suppose it's probably fine for small signal SET owners to use single-cap crossovers on compression tweeters, but if you ever connect to something with a little more power, you're in trouble. Too much low frequency energy passes, even with a way-too-high crossover point. So the dynamic range is kinda limited, and I don't like that. I concluded a long time ago that I had to find other solutions.

Any of you guys had any luck with more than a handful of watts to your compression tweeters on a first-order filter?

Re: First-order tweeter crossovers [message #16390 is a reply to message #16388] Thu, 15 April 2004 09:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Wassilak is currently offline  Bill Wassilak
Messages: 402
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
Nope blew them all like you said. You got to remember that every time you 1/2 the freq. the excursion goes up by a factor of 4. From what I learned from other people about compression drivers is, lets say you have a tweeter x-over at 6k at 10 watts rated power, at 3k(-6db) the drivers are only going to be able to handle 5 watts ,@ 1.5K(-12db) 2.5watts, etc., because of the excursion increases. So you can see why it's to easy to shoot diaphram across the room with to much power on first order x-overs.

Bill W.

Re: First-order tweeter crossovers [message #16391 is a reply to message #16388] Thu, 15 April 2004 10:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GarMan is currently offline  GarMan
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Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (2nd Degree)
Haven't built enough speakers to have real world experience in this area. But wondering, would a tweeter's ability to deal with first order also be depended on its sentitivity compared to the woofer?

For example, it pretty common for tweeters to have 10dBs over the woofer. Put an L-Pad in to match SPL levels, and the tweeter only receives 10% of power. So, while the woofer might be getting 50W to 100W, the tweeter only receives 5W to 10W.

Gar.

Re: First-order tweeter crossovers [message #16392 is a reply to message #16391] Thu, 15 April 2004 12:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Wassilak is currently offline  Bill Wassilak
Messages: 402
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
>>But wondering, would a tweeter's ability to deal with first order also be depended on its sentitivity compared to the woofer?

This has nothing to do with it. It's in the construction of the tweeter and materials used, Like Wayne says the cone or dome tweeters seem like they can handle it better, where as you get into compression drivers and ribbons the diaphram materials are so thin it won't take much flexing (from the lower freqs. below the x-over point) they'll rip themselves apart on a first-order.

Bill W.

Re: First-order tweeter crossovers [message #16393 is a reply to message #16388] Thu, 15 April 2004 13:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
Messages: 1275
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
I use a supertweeter with a first order crossover at 14,000 cycles, with low powered tube amps. never had a problem. IF the tweeter is doing less than 3000 HZ, i guess there may be a problem......
I guess if one is doing first order, then cross it over high....go 3 way!
-akhilesh


Re: First-order tweeter crossovers [message #16394 is a reply to message #16393] Fri, 16 April 2004 00:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18783
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)
You've got dome tweeters too, which seem to be a bit more forgiving of lower-frequency energies from first-order filters.

Re: First-order tweeter crossovers [message #16395 is a reply to message #16391] Fri, 16 April 2004 00:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18783
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)
Well, sure, cutting power by 10x gives you that much more ability to handle input power. But the sound output ability remains the same, it just shifts the power point where maximum safe output occurs. You're still talking the same max SPL.

Consider that a first-order crossover with 10dB padding is -16dB an octave below crossover. The same thing but with a third-order filter is -28dB one octave below. The tweeter with the third-order filter is receiving less energy one octave below crossover (-18dB) than the first-order filter (-6dB), even if the first-order solution is padded 10x (-16dB).

It's not that the first-order solution is without merit. It's just that you can't hit the dynamic range peaks with a compression tweeter using a first-order crossover as you can with a higher-order slope.

Consider both power and excursion. [message #16396 is a reply to message #16392] Fri, 16 April 2004 06:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Fitzmaurice is currently offline  Bill Fitzmaurice
Messages: 335
Registered: May 2009
Grand Master
What limits a tweeters ability to run with a 1st order crossover is both power and excursion.

The power reduction afforded by a capacitor at 6dB per octave is generally adequate to counter the rising program power input, on average 3dB per octave, as one goes lower in frequency, giving a net reduction of 3dB per octave, assuming a reasonably robust voice-coil. However, since excursion increases by a factor of 4(6dB) per octave as frequency drops for equal power input then even with a net power input reduction of 3dB/octave the excursion demand will rise at 3dB/octave. That being the case I wouldn't consider a 1st order filter unless the corner frequency was set to at least 4 times Fs.

On the other hand, you can go to the other extreme as well with a very high order crossover. Neville Thiele has recently shown that with a 5th order high-pass you can run the corner frequency very close to the Fs without any difficulty from either the power or excursion standpoint, and the additonal octave or two of operating range thus afforded can well offer the opportunity to run two-way rather than 3-way. This works very well with a 3rd order low-pass on the woofer as far as integration goes, and offers a parts cost reduction as well compared to a 4th order/4th order arrangement due to the lessened high value inductor count.

Re: First-order tweeter crossovers [message #16397 is a reply to message #16388] Fri, 16 April 2004 07:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hurdy_gurdyman is currently offline  hurdy_gurdyman
Messages: 416
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
I'm using a transformer coupled piezo with a first order crossover with my EV LS-12 open baffles. A 1.5uF cap couples the 25 volt line transformer used to the amp. After the transformer is a zobel circuit and a 60 ohm resistor. The piezo has liquid nails covering the cheap plastic horn and a thin coat of Dammar varnish on the diaphram. The whole thing sounds pretty good. I've been listening to this set-up instead of my Heresy's for over a week now and am in no hurry to switch again.

Dave :^)

Re: First-order tweeter crossovers [message #16398 is a reply to message #16397] Fri, 16 April 2004 08:21 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18783
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)
That's pretty cool. I often run the piezo's with no crossover at all and I've never had any trouble smoking them. They act like they have a built-in crossover, so adding an additional (first-order) pole works just fine.

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