In my setup the speakers are toed in at 45° about 10 feet appart. The imaging is always central and quite good at all median line seating points, but the subjective effect is profoundly affected by the forward-backward position.

First consider 2 channel. At about 12 feet the image is solid but the subjective effect is one where the players appear to be in the room with you. As one moves closer the image locks into a more solid one, far more solid than a real instrument would be in this same room, and at a certain point about 6 feet back it is as if the listener were transported to the recording studio. You are in the room with the artist.

Whats happening here is a large change in the direct to reverberant ratio, as well as a surpression of early reflection levels. Of course with oni-directional loudspeakers this is not going to be the same since there are reflections from back walls etc. which get greater at closer positions and the direct to reverb ratio will not change nearly as much as with directional speakers.

These are dranmmatically different effects and I have found that different people prefer different ones and this may vary from recording to recording. The question is: do others perceive this same effect? Which is prefered? Please note speaker type and configuration.

Now in 5.1 channels, this effect is gone. There is no image change with forward position and further back is, IMO, far more prefered. This is also due to the fact that 5.1 comes with video and a 12 ft. screen at 6 feet is just plain not watchable. 12 feet is even a bit close.

Has anyone experinced this effect and what are the opinions? Please note that there is no right or wrong here so please don't take that perspective. Just let me know what you prefer and if you get this effect at all.

Earl

We've talked about that on my forum a lot over the years. The whole deal Bose did was based on it, and for whatever other things a person may think, I do think that his observation in that regard was genuine. People almost always think the sound made from a system like that with a lot of reflected energies is very spacious sounding. They marvel at the ambience.

But while it makes a convincing illusion of spaciousness, it does so at the expense of other qualities. It is especially noticeable to me in vocals and piano. The sound from a piano heard live comes from the soundboard, and it doesn't really come from all around you, even in a lively room. Same with vocals, if you're not in a cave or a shower, the direct sound is much louder than the reflected sound. So in some ways, it works but in others, it doesn't.

• Another discussion about direct and reflected sound

Well as usual I agree with a lot of what you say, but some I don't.

Without going to deep into details let me say that in the reply above, I am not sure that we are talking about the same thing. I mean Bose speakers could never do what I am talking about. In fact, after thinking about it, I am not sure that any wide directivity speaker could do it unless it were well away from any boundaries, which is tough in a typical room. It would need to be like the trick that I used to do as a kid. Lay on the floor and place the speakers about a foot or two away from your ears. The image will be locked on, almost like headphones.

In your link, I would agree that most of the terms that you mention are nebulous and ill defined, but I don't think that "disappearing speakers" is. I use this term, I think that it is very clear what it means - you cannot locate the speakers even though there is a sound stage - and obviuos when you hear it. All of the other terms I avoid.

At my current understanding of the disappearing speakers it is done by a setup that is free from diffraction in the vicinity of the speaker. Horns, to me, have never had this quality, because most diffract somewhere - at the throat or the mouth, or a diffraction slit. You can always pinpoint a typical horn. You can almsot always do this with a typical tweeter too, as there is always nerby diffraction from the tweeter assembly, mounting, enclosure, other speakers. When you have a system that has a minimum of diffraction then the speakers do indeed seem to disappear. This is what I have always tried to achieve and what I believe my speakers do better than any others that I have heard.

So to me, disppearing speakers is a very real objective.

But my current post is not really about disappearing, although it may well be that until the speakers do disappear, the effect that I am talking about may not be readily apparent. Thats what I am trying to find out.

PS. To call image localization "phase" dependent is not really a good usage of the term. Thats because there are actually several complete phase otation between the two ears at HF and the phase is then ambifguos. The better term is inter-aural time difference. Sure phase depends on this, but this term is unambiguous while the phase is not. Phase differences are only meaningfull between 10 and 360 - after that its a phase delay or there are multiple dealys with the same phase difference.

Perhaps a minor point, but in some situations a critical one.

Earl

One thing I thought was telling was how people perceived the sound of directional sources and reflected energies. My conclusion is that uniformity is more important than directionality, but uniformity includes things outside the loudspeaker. It includes placement, orientation and directionality and involves the way the speaker(s) fill the environment with sound.

Hopefully, others will chime in because I think there is some real merit in looking at this.

• http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=28&pagestring=Room+Setup+3

http://www.gedlee.com/new_loudspeaker.htm

If you still have questions after reading that let me know.

In the link that you posted the listener is off axis of the loudspeakers. Unless these are constant directivity loudspeakers (which very few are) the direct sound will not be flat.

I find it most interesting that your perceptions and preferences are identical to mine. I like the solid precise imaging - for a while, but then it gets edgy to me. If I back up to take the edge off I still get a good imgage - not as precise, but far more listenable over the long term.

But from experince I have found that if new people come over, I had better put them in that nearfield prcise image or I don't get a "wow" out of them. Again, from my experience, good loudspeakers don't stand out. They don't jump at you and say "I'm great!" They just never get on your nerves. Kind of like the bar clown who you laugh at for the first 1/2 hour or so, but then you just want to get away from him - and usually can't. Good speakers are more like the quiet guy you sit next to and gradually get to know and find out that he's really well read, intelligent and worth listening to. You never find this out unless you take the time to get to know him.

I get down right annoyed when people listen to my speakers and have immediate comments. It takes me hours to decide on something like sound quality - how do they do it in minutes or seconds!?

Enough ranting.

Bye for now

Earl