Home » Audio » Thermionic Emissions » Why SE in SET amps?
Re: Why SE in SET amps? [message #11392 is a reply to message #11391] Mon, 24 September 2007 09:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18791
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

On first inspection, the relative percentage of harmonics seemed to be the biggest difference between amps. But after looking at it a bit more, I started to realize that it would be possible for nonlinear distortion to be caused by negative feedback loops in certain conditions. The one that is most obvious is output near clipping, but there are others. Then there are things like noise floor, the kinds of noise made, be they AC frequency (60/120Hz), rectification switching artifacts, or hiss from electron collisions and other noise sources. There are a lot of differences, to tell the truth.


Re: Why SE in SET amps? [message #11393 is a reply to message #11392] Mon, 24 September 2007 17:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
granch is currently offline  granch
Messages: 118
Registered: May 2009
Viscount
Plse tell me more about the "others".
The reason "total distortion" (not necessarily harmonic) is so easy to measure is that all you have to do is run a pure sine wave thru the amp, null it out, and see what's left. Anything left is by definition distortion - hum, noise, or whatever.
I agree that there are lots of differences between amps, but let's face it: they are the least distorting part of the reproducing chain - unless you count the wires, which many of your contributors find make "huge" differences. Anyway, compared to electromechanical devices, amps can be "perfect".

Re: Why SE in SET amps? [message #11394 is a reply to message #11393] Tue, 25 September 2007 18:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18791
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

See the link below. There are a couple of articles by Norman Koren in the post that might interest you. One talks about possible problems in the feedback loop from reactance that causes phase shift. Load capacitance that makes total phase shift exceed 180° causes oscillation. If near 180°, a peak is evident in the response curve. The problem is exacerbated in amplifiers with output transformers because of the phase shift inherent in the system. Other problems include susceptibility to RF interference in amplifiers with global feedback, as the speaker output lines are long and make good antennas. The speaker wires are connected to the feedback loop, so they tend to pass RF back into the amplifier. Then there is the matter that negative feedback tends to sharpen clipping. It reduces distortion until the amplifier reaches saturation, and then distortion rises abruptly.

Bear in mind that Norman Koren appears to be an advocate of no feedback SET designs. But he also appears to be pretty objective, making a strong case for the proper use of limited negative feedback in some designs. It's an interesting read, in any case.


Re: Why SE in SET amps? [message #11395 is a reply to message #11394] Tue, 25 September 2007 20:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
granch is currently offline  granch
Messages: 118
Registered: May 2009
Viscount
Thanks for all the very interesting links. Much of it was familiar to me - as familiar as stuff not thought about for 30 yrs can be. And I agree with him. However, I will still stand by my original statement that a "well designed" feedback amp (one that has taken all these factors into consideration), operated within its ratings (i.e., without overload and clipping) is the most linear thing we have in the audio chain. One might argue that, say, loudspeakers can maintain the same if they (and their enclosures) are well designed and not driven into nonlinearity. I don't really know the answer to that, but speaker design has not changed that much in 50 years and Vilchur certainly demonstrated that air was a more linear suspension than the usual speaker designs - yet I seem to recall that air compression is not all that linear. I think the point about RF entering through the output cables is a very good one and one not often thought of. Even that can be handled usually by good engineering (shielding, balancing and filtering). I believe that Koren is very objective and knows what he is talking about. He is not one of those worried about which ankle of the centipede has arthritis.

Re: Why SE in SET amps? [message #11396 is a reply to message #11395] Tue, 25 September 2007 22:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18791
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I agree with you. We must think a lot alike in this matter.


Re: Why SE in SET amps? [message #11398 is a reply to message #11396] Wed, 26 September 2007 14:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
granch is currently offline  granch
Messages: 118
Registered: May 2009
Viscount
Probably in others as well - after all, don't all great minds think alike? Well, all right, often anyway.
-Dick

Re: Why SE in [all kinds of Class A] amps? [message #11399 is a reply to message #11398] Mon, 08 October 2007 00:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18791
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Slightly off-topic, but related: Check out the ProFet post in the Class A Semiconductor forum. The Selectronic ProFet is a single-ended FET amp and it really sounds nice. If you're not averse to solid state gear, give it a look and listen.


Re: Why SE in [all kinds of Class A] amps? [message #11400 is a reply to message #11399] Mon, 08 October 2007 20:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
granch is currently offline  granch
Messages: 118
Registered: May 2009
Viscount
I gave it a look. It's pretty. The circuit diagram would likely be even prettier.
But no way for me to give it a listen - and besides I wear hearing aids in both ears, now which ruin everything. Actually I remove them for music, but I still miss a lot.
-Dick

Re: Why SE in [all kinds of Class A] amps? [message #61385 is a reply to message #11400] Mon, 16 November 2009 10:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matts is currently offline  Matts
Messages: 359
Registered: May 2009
Grand Master
in my estimation, your question about why people prefer a topology that doesn't test as well as another is interesting. Testing and engineering are very important and we wouldn't have audio reproduction w/out them, but they are not the end goal for many- enjoyable sound is. Scientific testing is important to testing theories and circuits, but you can't listen to a scope trace! (at least not on my monster HP...) So those us who prefer SET simply think it sounds better to us and the amount of harmonic distortion doesn't matter. The tone of all music instruments, to the extent they vary from a pure sine tone, is "distortion" from overtones. Many great violins have a second harmonic louder than the primary in spectograms! The Hammond electronic organs have something like 9 overtones blended into each note to create it's "tone". All topologies can sound excellent if properly implemented, and everyone should listen to the one they like best that produces the power they need. The whole art of making guitar amps is creating the pleasing distortion, usually through overdriving, even though almost all of them are P-P.
Re: Why SE in [all kinds of Class A] amps? [message #61386 is a reply to message #61385] Mon, 16 November 2009 13:10 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18791
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

For a few years, I was working under an impression that tube amps distorted more than solid state amps, but that perhaps tube distortion was more "euphonic" than transistors because lower order harmonics weren't as disagreeable as higher order harmonics. As an example, something that produces mostly second harmonics is definitely going to sound better than something that generates a sharp edged clipping sound with lots of very high harmonics. If nothing else, the spectral content is very different. But there is another thing to consider, and that's the fact that most tube amps use very different topologies than solid state. The circuit configurations are different, and is probably more responsible for low THD ratings on solid state amps than anything else.

I was talking with a guy that used to work for Svetlana a few years back, and he made the case that a triode almost always distorted less than a transistor with comparible ratings. The whole deal is really related to feedback. The transistor amps provided more gain, but then used feedback to reduce distortion. He claimed that the reason solid state amps distort less wasn't even the fact that they were solid state, but more the fact that they used a lot of negative feedback, which cancelled distortion. If you did the same thing with tubes, you'd get lower distortion still. But people don't do that because they don't have to - the distortion levels aren't objectionable. The main thing about tubes is you can't make as much power, or at least not cheaply. Higher power is the big advantage of solid state, not lower distortion. The distortion advantage is mostly from the topology, putting a lot of gain stages in and then using negative feedback.

I didn't bother to study this further, to try and confirm or deny this. Instead, I sort of took it as fact, although I guess I haven't really bothered to check. But it does appear to be reasonable to me. I do know that negative feedback reduces distortion, but also that once you've gone past the limits of the amp, once it is clipping, negative feedback no longer works - it can't. So negative feedback works well up to a point, and then completely comes apart. As far as whether or not a class A triode distorts less than a class A bipolar transistor or a class A FET, I suppose that is probably something that is different from device to device, and how far into the load lines you push them.

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