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comparing amplifiers [message #10805]

Sat, 04 December 2004 10:00

Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (13th Degree)

I have 2c's to offer here. I spent about 4 hrs. about three weeks ago listening and studying the Decware 84c with the top of the line upgrades on a pair of Dec speakers. They are Single Drivers and sound pretty good. I also own a Foreplay with all upgrades and a Seduction with all upgrades.
I did a write up on the Stoetkit recently and am currently using the Tubes 4hifi el-84 rebiuld of the Dyna ST 35. Why do I say all this?
Well; thinking hard on this I have come to some conclusions.
The original SEX kit was a great thing; there were no inexpensive SE amps anywhere to be had so it was a great way to get involved. And it sounded pretty good.
Now there are inumerable kits available for under 600$. Most of the people on this forumm have heard them, Bottlehead/Consonance/TBHF/ Dec.. on and on. It's fun to build them and play with parts and join the forumms. But what I am begginning to notice is a certain solid state sameness to the sound of all of them. I cannot say if that is a deliberate design descision or not but it is there and it is noticeable. Now there isd a new game in town; the chip amps. They sound different but in many ways just as good as the cheapo amp kits.
I now have the T-amp/Brian GT's GC and listen to them daily. This may spell the death of cheap tube amps. Not good tubes just inexpensive ones:
which brings me to my point; any one of the amps mentioned sound good with reasonably efficient speakers. There is one thing though; none of them sound great.
Aye' there's the rub; after playing with these units for a couple of years; a good, rebuilt to specs Eico, still trounces any of them. There is a component of very good reproduction that is definately missing. How to define it; well like the bluesman said I know it when I hear it.
I would love to say the cheap amps do the thing, I can't and I know in the end it is going to cost me money. But the real sound is out there and probably is a tube driven circuit with a big fat triode and hugely expensive transformers.
The good thing is you can get 85% of the way there for a few hundred bucks. But my new opinion is buy the GC kits for 70$ and spend the rest on your front end. The chip amps sound great with efficient speakers and you can slap them together in a day. I can hear the banshee screaming in the distance for those cheap tubes now. And you are free from the tyranny of tube sellers and thier predatory pricing schemes.

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Re: comparing amplifiers [message #10806 is a reply to message #10805]

Sat, 04 December 2004 15:29

Wayne Parham
Messages: 18793
Registered: January 2001

Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Hi John,

You won't hear "banshee screaming" from me; I agree with you. I think the good news is that if the kit makers are making them sound right, they all will sound pretty much the same. There will be subtle differences, because amps like that are pretty sensitive. They have high output impedance and no mechanisms for distortion cancellation. But all-in-all, if they're pretty good they'll have similar tonal characteristics.

Stuff that sounds different in stark contrast are those amps that have 10dB rolled off high end, stuff like that. I really wince when I hear equipment that's way off, no point in having it in my opinion.

I see the tube amps as a form of art. They're not just engineering, they're also art. In fact, maybe more so.

I think I've been as intrigued by the aesthetics and novelty as I have the sound. So that's a part of the deal to me. When I see a tube amp that sounds good but looks like a science project, and another that also sounds good but looks like art, I'll take the attractive one every time. Sure, form follows function but that's not to say that form has to be ugly for function to be good.

Wayne

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Re:Building kits is like cooking from a recipe [message #10807 is a reply to message #10805]

Sun, 05 December 2004 03:44

BillEpstein
Messages: 886
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (2nd Degree)

Measure carefully and perhaps your hypothesis is correct. As Wayne suggests tonal neurality is, or at least should be, a design goal. But there are so many changes that can be made to influence the "flavor": chokes, capacitors, additional filtering, volume controls, tube-rolling that the end product can be very different sounding than the original design.

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Re: comparing amplifiers [message #10808 is a reply to message #10806]

Sun, 05 December 2004 10:45

Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (13th Degree)

Wayne and Bill; Amps and pre-amps are funny in that they are portable and easy to build so therefor everyone tries out many different amps and everyone has an opinion. Lugging big speakers around ain't happening and CD's are still mostly buy and play items. Vinyll is tricky to set-up so not portable and too many variables too get right. That leaves the amps.
Trying different caps and resistors and wire and chokes make a noticeable difference in sound. Is it better? Usually just different;.."Flavors".
I don't know about you guys but I am only trying for the best sound I can get for the money I have. Playing with amps and pre-amps is fun but in the final analysis the best bang for the dollar comes from room treatment in my humble opinion. Then your front end. Then the speakers. Listening to the super Decware set-up made me realise that the infatuation with low cost alternative amplifiers is a dead end. It seems they can only go so far towards good sound, when I and others take a pair of Eiclones and they sound better than a fully tricked out Dec, I have to question where and how to proceed.
Now these chip amps come out and they sound damned good; almost as good and in some ways better than a pair of Bottlehead Paramours that run 600$ I now have to question the wisdom of spending on the amps when that extra 500$ could buy me a Audio Technika ML 150 cartridge that makes a huge difference in the ultimate musicality of the whole system. And still have 250$ left over.
Thats just me theorizing; the Banshee reference I used stems from the old Irish myth that says anytime the screams of the Banshee are heard in the village someone will die within a fortnight. The death knell for cheap tube amps in the form of a chip.

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Re: comparing amplifiers [message #10809 is a reply to message #10808]

Sun, 05 December 2004 12:15

colinhester
Messages: 1349
Registered: May 2009
Location: NE Arkansas

Illuminati (3rd Degree)

STOP IT!!! You're killing me with all this talk of t-amps sounding as good or better than tube amps. Do you realize how much money I've spent in the search of AUDIO NIRVANA, only to tell me I've been looking for the wrong plateau. Off with your head

Seriously though, you really have me curious about the future of tubes vs. solid state. Why do I listen to tubes? Is it out of nostalga? Is there a mysterious, yet unmeasurable psycho-accoustic force that draws me in?

Time to go meditate over a hot pot of solder and look for answers in the swirls of the toxic eutectic.....Colin

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Re: comparing amplifiers [message #10810 is a reply to message #10809]

Sun, 05 December 2004 12:30

Wayne Parham
Messages: 18793
Registered: January 2001

Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Banshee screams in the background

You know, I remember hearing that story about the banshee on an Art Bell radio show or something.

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Re: comparing amplifiers [message #10811 is a reply to message #10810]

Sun, 05 December 2004 15:32

Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (13th Degree)

My Father-in-Law was a NYC cop, and he tended bar part time at The Blarney Stone. He was Grand Master of the Hibernians at the lodge. His people came from County Cork not far from Tralee in the South of Ireland. He liked to take a drink now and then and The man could tell a story. It began when you met him and it did not end until he passed away. No one can tell a story like the Irish. He had all those old world superstitions; they told him about the Banshee when he was but a chiuld.

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Re: comparing amplifiers [message #10812 is a reply to message #10809]

Sun, 05 December 2004 17:18

Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (13th Degree)

No No, my friend; Tubes are still king make no mistake. Unfortunately the Transformers and circuits are unforgiving and require those really high voltages and lots of metal to get the response down low and up high. And we know what that means, lots of money. If you think this is expensive, take up golf; or boating. How does the saying go; if you have to ask the price, then you can't afford it.

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Re: comparing amplifiers [message #10813 is a reply to message #10811]

Sun, 05 December 2004 21:16

Wayne Parham
Messages: 18793
Registered: January 2001

Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Hey, I just learned some trivial trivia on the History Channel. Did you know that the original name for the Pontiac Firebird was the "Banshee?" John DeLorean had designed a two-seater and GM axed it, forcing him to make a four-seater to compete with the Mustang. It was to use the same chassis as the Camero but DeLorean pushed for use of a larger 400 CID engine. Along the line, the "Banshee" name was also dropped and "Firebird" was chosen instead. Pretty cool little factoid, huh?

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