Home » Audio » General » Initial Listening Impressions of Yamaha ca-1010
Initial Listening Impressions of Yamaha ca-1010 [message #26185] Fri, 17 September 2004 06:50 Go to next message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
Messages: 1275
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
Hi Everyone,
I recevied the Yamaha ca-1010 and have heard it for 2 evenings now. I connected it to both sets of speakers I listen to usually: my klipschorns and my homebrews. Both are really "SET" speakers.
Anyways, I connected the Yamaha amp. This is a 90 watt AB or an 18 watt class A amp, built in the late 1970's.
I ran it in class A for my initila impressions.
The amplifier has decent frequency control. Detail retrieval seems as good as the SETs, or maybe a little better. Imaging is very significantly worse, with the sound coming from the two sepakers, unlike my toher amps, all of which image much better. Overall, listenng to classical music on the klipschorns with this is fine, but my smaller home brews don't sound as good with this amp. I will now speculate why.

This SS amp is more "neutral" than the SETs I listen to, esp. in terms of distortion. The SETS probably have much more even order distortion, leading to a fatter. richer sound, whcih augments well with my wide-range driver set-up. The "neutral" sound of the YAmaha brings out the limitations of the widerange driver setup, while the SETs actually add richness and cancel out the leanness in my home brews.

ANyway, just my initial listening impressions. A level matched comparo review will follow.
thanx
-akhilesh

Re: Initial Listening Impressions of Yamaha ca-1010 [message #26186 is a reply to message #26185] Fri, 17 September 2004 07:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Hi AK; For the benefit of the readers, exactly what is it you mean by "Nuetral", ie, what is your reference to distinguish between neutral and non-neutral? I am writing up the Stoetkit review and would like to get a handle on how some of these terms are percieved by others. How do THD distortion figures equate to a particular tonal quality and how does that tonal quality influence the concept of "neutral" sound. Since most recordings made in a studio have some kind of processing installed, are they neccessarily nuetral? SS amps by definition require huge amounts of negative feedback which we know compromises the source signal by introducing phase anomalie's, is that still neutral? Could these effects derive from impedance mis-matches rather than circuit design? Thanks,J.R.(I think these issues are paramount to maintaining some consistancy as a reviewer, thats why I try to understand integral meaning as percieved by individuals.)

Re: Initial Listening Impressions of Yamaha ca-1010 [message #26187 is a reply to message #26185] Fri, 17 September 2004 12:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18670
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)
I'm anxious to see and hear that amp. It will bring back some fond memories for me. One of my first good sound systems included a Yamaha receiver. Does your amp have tall thin selector knobs?

Re: Initial Listening Impressions of Yamaha ca-1010 [message #26188 is a reply to message #26187] Fri, 17 September 2004 17:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
Messages: 1275
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
Hi Wray,
I sent you an email to decide on times.
Yeah it has silver knobs that are long. it's in great shape.
-akhilesh

Re: Initial Listening Impressions of Yamaha ca-1010 [message #26189 is a reply to message #26186] Fri, 17 September 2004 17:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
Messages: 1275
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
HI John,
>what is your reference to distinguish between neutral and non->neutral?
To me neutral is: a) flat frequency response, b) low distortion.
Most good SS amps have this in spades. Most SET amps do not! SET amps emphatically emphasize different frequencies (like the modrange) and introduce audioble even order distortion. Most PP tube amps are more neutral.

>How do THD distortion figures equate to a particular tonal quality >and how does that tonal quality influence the concept of "neutral" >sound.
Even order distortion makes the tone fatter and richer than a neutral tone...the instruments sounds fuller and ewarmer...guitarists love this, and so do listeners like me.
Odd order distortion makes the music sound thin and a little garbled.

>Since most recordings made in a studio have some kind of processing >installed, are they neccessarily nuetral?
You are right. Hence when comparing amps, we should use the same recording, to remove the effects of the recording. If it sounds richer & fuller on one amp versus another, it's the amp.

>SS amps by definition require huge amounts of negative feedback >which we know compromises the source signal by introducing phase >anomalie's, is that still neutral?
John, IMHO negative feedback in amps that are well engineered is inaudible. I fear it has been used as a marketing tool more than anything else. I say this after having heard amps with feedback and without. My favorite amps that I own are:
(i) A SET 45 with no feedback
(ii) An ASUSA SET el84 ap with feedback
(iii) The zen amp with no feedback
(iv) The ASL K-502 kit 11bm8 PP tube amp with negative feedback.

>Could these effects derive from impedance mis-matches rather than >circuit design
Yes John, they could. My speakers are SET friendly, so they really should be SS friendly. However, and i may be wrong on this, most speakers are not SET friendly but only SS friendly. And then therer are those that are just plain unfriendly.. ;-)

Hope this helps.
-akhilesh


Re: Initial Listening Impressions of Yamaha ca-1010 [message #26190 is a reply to message #26189] Fri, 17 September 2004 19:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Thanks AK; once again a reasoned and respectful dialogue. I would enjoy to delve further into this subject providing you are willing. And in the public foruum so all can observe. These aspects of the reviewers art really need to be expanded on; and since you have taken up the gauntlet via your review site then it is an appropriate venue for this discussion. My pet peeve with amps occurs when they have no life and don't breath, and unfortunately I find most SS amps to exhibit this irritating lack of life. When you state that your amps are SET freindly, what do you mean; the output impedance is low?
Next, odd order distortion products are a fact of life with pentodes, there is no escape. Triodes distort in even fundamentals I am sure that is one of the reasons they sound so good as well as very good damping off the plate.. Please allow me to list what I have on hand and my impressions;
Carver TFM 35 SS amplifier
Luxman M-120 duo-beta SS amp class A
Fisher 5ooc reciever tube PP 7591 tubes
Dyna st-35 tube PP
EAR el-859 screen grid SET SS rectified
Dyna ST-70 fully tricked out
Bottlehead foreplay pre-amp w/ all mods
Seduction phono stage w/all mods
Dyna Pas 2 pre-amp modded
Brians 3578 chip amp

I think we can work with these pieces on my end. The EAR uses 10db negative feedback, the rest all employ some type of NFB. If you examine the schematic of those tube amps you list even w/o obvious feedback there are loops inherent in the circuit I believe.
That is one aspect of amp configuration i cannot understand well. If your amp is cathode biased then there is a feedback loop through the bias cap. Do you have any info regarding that? The Carver sounds dry and bland through the Pi Theater 4's. No life not real musical.
The Luxman is a real ballsy amp but like all SS amps I have ever heard it sounds a little flat and two dimensional, although the class A SS amps are much more musical.
The Fisher is coloured but musical.
The Dyna ST-35 is very smooth and musical.
Same for the ST-70 except it has a slight mettalic tinge, although that may be the result of very high frequency oscillation.
The EAR is one of the best amps bar none but it tends to be less involving than some other good SE's.
Thats good so far my hands are getting tired, Thanks much for helping me out with this reviewing thing, J.R.( The chip amp is a great bargain but not for long term listening)


Re: Initial Listening Impressions of Yamaha ca-1010 [message #26191 is a reply to message #26190] Fri, 17 September 2004 22:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
Messages: 1275
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
My pleasure, John. This is a good hobby with the right folk, like you!
Some more comments below:

>When you state that your amps are SET freindly, what do you mean; >the output impedance is low?
My _speakers_ are SET friendly, meaning even an amp with a low damping factor like a SET can drive them. The speakers have fairly uniform impedances.
>If your amp is cathode biased then there is a feedback loop through >the bias cap
Cathode biasing is a method of biasing a tube where the bias is generated by the voltage drop across a resistor in the cathode. The grid is referred to ground through a resistor, and the current flow through the cathode resistor produces a positive cathode voltage with respect to the grid, which is effectively the same as making the grid negative with respect to the cathode.

I don't know enough about tube amp design to state if a cathode bias always results in NFB...i am inclined to state it does not. Also, based on the definition here, I am not sure what a bias cap is.

>like all SS amps I have ever heard it sounds a little flat and two >dimensional
This may be the result of the SET amps interactions with your speakers. Can you tell us what speakers you use?

I am not saying that a SET is bad. Obviously I love SETs. However, I think SETs add richness and dimensionality mainly thru audible distortion (which is fine with me.. i am not shooting for perfection, merely my own enjoyment.) It IS possible I think to achieve good sound with neutral speakers and a neutral SS amp as well. It will just cost a lot more (neutral speakers are very hard to build, and cost almost always much more than homebrews), and the sound will miss the richness that even order distortion can bring.

I am interested in your review of the Stoetkit! Looking forward to it.
-akhilesh



Re: Initial Listening Impressions of Yamaha ca-1010 [message #26192 is a reply to message #26191] Fri, 17 September 2004 23:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Thanks AK; In the third paragraph you state that SET's cause a reaction with the speakers but If you re-read the post I wrote SS not SET's. However Right now I am using both the Pi Theater 4's and my Altec Valencias for serious listening. Understand these comments have accrued from many years and many types of loudspeakers resulting in these opinion's and of course bias's. Check the EAR site, Tim DePavaracini; the designer has a good rep. The EL-859 produces measured IM and THD comparable to many high quality PP and even SS amps. It is rock solid on the bass and not sensitive to uneven impedance loads. For years before I decided that if this was going to be a hobby, then by definition it required I learn and build rather than purchase; I used Spendor SP1's and Klipsch Cornwalls with the EL 859. But now things have changed, therefor the kits and homebrew I have experienced of course leading up to the ultimate transmitting triode SE amp I am studying to build.
This by way of background, please excuse the redundency and tiresome cataloguing of equipment on my part.
In the cathode bias statements I refer to the capacitor bypass across the bias resistor. If you observe any typical SE schematic you should see that one leg of the transformer is fed from the bypass capacitor thereby forming a feedback loop. Although It may be possible to do w/o I have never seen that cap eliminated from any cathode bias scheme.
The Solid state amps I can listen to for more than 10 minutes have all been class A operated. Threshold and Nakamichi Stasis were the amps I am familiar with although I think Nelson Pass uses Class A in his amp.
The term Neutral to me implies that the amplifier; or any link in the chain reproduces sound that does not deviate from the recorded master tape. Is that an acceptable definition? Thanks again and thank you for the compliment in expressing interest in my humble attempt at reviewing the Stoetkit; following the excellent efforts of Yourself and Phil and Wayne I must admitt I am somewhat intimidated. Very good and thorough post by Thermionic, had I seen it before my previous post I would have desisted since he has dealt with much of what I have said. This is good stuff and very helpfull.

Re: Initial Listening Impressions of Yamaha ca-1010 [message #26193 is a reply to message #26188] Fri, 17 September 2004 23:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18670
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)
Sounds good; We'll get together next week.

Wayne

Re: Initial Listening Impressions of Yamaha ca-1010 [message #26194 is a reply to message #26192] Fri, 17 September 2004 23:28 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18670
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)
Yo John,

I just wanted to say that your input to this forum has always been excellent and I've always appreciated your comments and respected your opinions. You definitely shouldn't feel intimidated 'cause your posts are always lucid and enjoyable. We're a bunch of buddies that share mutual respect. Seems the attitude is contageous, and that's good.

Wayne

Previous Topic: Vacuum Tube Valley #21
Next Topic: Budget Isolation Base
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Thu Mar 28 23:50:04 CDT 2024

Sponsoring Organizations

DIY Audio Projects
DIY Audio Projects
OddWatt Audio
OddWatt Audio
Pi Speakers
Pi Speakers
Prosound Shootout
Prosound Shootout
Smith & Larson Audio
Smith & Larson Audio
Tubes For Amps
TubesForAmps.com

Lone Star Audiofest