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Hi-Efficiency vs Lo-Efficiency Speakers [message #17282] Sun, 02 January 2005 08:10 Go to next message
HaknHendrix is currently offline  HaknHendrix
Messages: 25
Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
The beginning of the New Year often causes one to be reflective. Over the past year, we (my son's & I) have built a Bottlehead Foreplay, Grounded Grid Preamp, moded ASL Wave 8's, did the Swenson/Vinnie mods to a Toshiba 3950 (twice, another story), built 2 Pi Towers, purchased John LaPaires beautiful 4 Pi Tower's & 2 Pi's - installed drivers, and built a cross-over.

For the New Year - I will be refitting my 4 Pi Towers with Delta Pros, and hopefully building a Transcendent OTL amplifier.

Time to pause, and ask a question. What are the benefits of high efficiency speakers over low efficiency. Why isn't the mass consumer space using high-efficiency drivers.

Also interested in what some of you did during 2004, and your plans for 2005?

Thanks
Hakn

Re: Hi-Efficiency vs Lo-Efficiency Speakers [message #17283 is a reply to message #17282] Sun, 02 January 2005 09:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
spkrman57
Messages: 522
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
Quoted from Hakn:
"Time to pause, and ask a question. What are the benefits of high efficiency speakers over low efficiency. Why isn't the mass consumer space using high-efficiency drivers."

I think the reason why folks don't have "high-efficiency" drivers in the average home market is because:

a)they like cute little cube speakers that sound just like "little POS", cosmetic looks are higher priiority than sound!

b)is because the higher efficiency speakers are more revealing of the sound sources, and that would show the inadequacies of their mainstream amps/recvrs which are mass produced across the great pond, compared to our SET's which are more costly than the entire "stereo-in-a-box" type systems(which include "cute little cubes" again).

c)decent high efficiency drivers usually cost more than the "made by the thousands" stuff across the great pond

d) most importantly you must understand that for "most" folks, the quality of audio is not a critical need. Only a few of us(me included) actually spend time dedicated to "audio only", sit in the perfect spot(the sweet spot), and spend money like I had it to burn(sometimes missing meals and other luxuries) to get the ultimate in sound reproduction according to what we think the best sound should be like.

My apologies in advance to the Bose and other fans who like the little cute cubes, but just remember, just like engines, there really is no substitute for cubic inches!!! Little speakers sound just like little speakers. You can't change the laws of physics.

Ron (fan of refrigerator sized speaker systems)



Re: Hi-Efficiency vs Lo-Efficiency Speakers [message #17284 is a reply to message #17282] Sun, 02 January 2005 10:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
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Most high efficiency drivers require materials and manufacturing methods that are prohibitively expensive to mass market. I read that the drivers in a mass market speaker equal less than 10% of the manufacturing cost.
Then there is the question of size. High efficiency usually requires large drivers in large boxes; or smaller but costly drivers in complicated transmission line or horn loaded enclosures.
Mass market audio is marketed with such a tight profit margin they must squeeze literally pennies from each product. There is a great article written by an individual who used to design loudspeakers for Jensen where he claims they would change the temperatures of the ovens used to cure the glue on coil formers by 10 degrees to save fractions of a penny per unit.

Re: Hi-Efficiency vs Lo-Efficiency Speakers [message #17285 is a reply to message #17282] Sun, 02 January 2005 12:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
Messages: 1275
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
HI Hakn,
Happy new year to you as well.
My belief is that high eff. speakers :a) allow the use of low powered SET amps, and b) produce significanlty lesser distortion at normal listening volumes.

Other than that, I don't see any purpose. It is also true that it is much harder to get a flat frequency response from high eff speakers, i think becuase of the limitations of materials that can be used to make high eff. speakers.
Just my beliefs,as of today (they may change asi learn more) mostly empirical.
-akhilesh

Re: Hi-Efficiency vs Lo-Efficiency Speakers [message #17286 is a reply to message #17282] Sun, 02 January 2005 16:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18677
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)
The dynamic range and low distortion characteristic of high-efficiency designs are what do it for me. That and the fact that the better drivers tend to be built for prosound, so high quality and high efficiency tend to go hand in hand.

As an example, the first drivers I ever saw that used shorting rings were prosound units. That made them waaaay better where distortion was concerned because for one thing they were very efficient, so required low drive levels for a given SPL and for another thing, they resisted flux modulation distortion, so even-orders were like 20dB less.

Now days, I think there are some high quality low-efficiency drivers. High excursion woofers have relatively low efficiency because the geometry of the coil and magnet makes high excursion and high flux density mutually exclusive. You can increase magnetic strength, but if the flux is spread out over more space to make high excursion possible, that reduces magnetic density. This requires more power in the coils to move the diaphragm greater distances. So even if the build quality is there, the efficiency is not.

I suppose some of those high-power, high-excursion designs can be made to provide high output, and maybe low distortion. With greater power, they can be expected to provide high SPL, which then means it is possible to get them to produce high dynamic range. There is the compression issue to deal with, but I am not closed minded that it couldn't be done. So I suppose there are possible solutions using low-efficiency designs that provide high dynamic range and low distortion.

But most low-efficiency designs aren't particularly impressive. The newer high-excursion woofers of the last ten years or so are a possible exception, but most home hifi speakers in the 85dB-90dB range are just average devices with 100dB maximum power limits. That's where high efficiency speakers start, with a watt or so, just loafing. I have personally never heard a low efficiency design that was of exceptionally good quality. So I guess that's where my observation ends.

Re: Lab Project Jones [message #17287 is a reply to message #17286] Sun, 02 January 2005 18:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BillEpstein is currently offline  BillEpstein
Messages: 886
Registered: May 2009
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Place Norah Jone's 'Feels Like Home' and Ricki Lee Jones 'It's Like This' in your CD changer and press shuffle all discs.
Set the volume where you normally listen to most CD's and press play.
Ricki Lee will fill the room with music which is loud only on crescendo's but soft passages are soft. Norah, OTOH goes from LOUD to WAYTOOLOUD!!!!
Compression is why those stupid little speakers sell. There are no dynamics in most commercial recordings so no ability to handle them is needed. And why is that? Because at home the masses listen to TV. Where do they listen to music? In their cars.

Re: Lab Project Jones [message #17288 is a reply to message #17287] Sun, 02 January 2005 19:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
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Registered: January 2001
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No doubt, that's a good illustration. Find some music with dynamic range and it takes a speaker with some hutzpah to get it right.

Re: Hi-Efficiency vs Lo-Efficiency Speakers [message #17291 is a reply to message #17285] Sun, 02 January 2005 23:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18677
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)
You brought up a similar topic a little while back that might be worth linking here:

Re: Hi-Efficiency vs Lo-Efficiency Speakers [message #17294 is a reply to message #17291] Mon, 03 January 2005 10:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
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I agree. Thanks for lthe link, Wayne!
-akhilesh

Also they allow dynamic range, [message #17295 is a reply to message #17285] Mon, 03 January 2005 10:17 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
Messages: 1275
Registered: May 2009
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As Wayne said. The ability to fill a larger room with realsitic sound means you need maybe 110-120 DB level systems. Most home audio systems can do about 100.
NOrmal listening levels would be about 90-95 db.

-akhilesh

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