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I got an Idea; [message #54714] Fri, 14 October 2005 12:49 Go to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
How about this: All who feel that after the Bush tax cuts in 2002 until now; that they are paying less in total taxes than they were before; say less or more, so if you think your budget reflects a higher percentage of your income going to taxes; then thats a more.
Simple question; simple answer.

Remmember; if the Feds don't pay; that doesn't mean the bill goes away.
So if the feds cut it the locals and states have to make it up. Thats your total tax bill.

I'll start;
MORE.

Much less... [message #54718 is a reply to message #54714] Fri, 14 October 2005 14:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mr Vinyl is currently offline  Mr Vinyl
Messages: 407
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
ok this was it for me. Thanks for the debate. As I said earlier I have to get back to family. I'll check back in every now and then just to see what's cooking.


I like the discussion of tax... [message #54744 is a reply to message #54718] Mon, 17 October 2005 20:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike.e is currently offline  Mike.e
Messages: 471
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
It seems like its abit nasty-but isnt that the way with speaker wire,politics or religion!

Im not familiar with the US type of government with local governments having power also.

Personally here in NZ weve just got our labour government for the 3rd term in again,in a minority coalition. I voted right because I consider labour far too extreme,wasteful of money. Theres no real incentive to work,its a low wage economy.

I notice labour appeals to those who dont like to think. Single line statements,big headlines,etc without any deep discussion or study.

Mike.e

Re: I like the discussion of tax... [message #54746 is a reply to message #54744] Tue, 18 October 2005 06:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Mike; nice of you to offer your opinion from over the pond. Don't be too hasty to judge this discussion as nasty or non-informative.
Your statement about one line philosophies applies here also. Taxes affect everyone and they are very complicated subject. The bottom line is when a president wants to appear as if he is a tax responsible individual he immediately goes about proposing tax cuts and then showing them off to the voters.
But the truth is the taxes must be paid one way or the other. If the Federal Govt cuts their share of the tax burden then that money must be found from another source. Usually from state and local govts. This happens because the states must fund those programs that suffer a shortfall in revenue due to the Federal Tax cut.
You may not have a progressive tax policy there where the percentage of taxes owed increase as the income increases. Here that is the fact. So the wealthier amongst us hide their income by accepting it in stock transfers which are taxed at a much lower rate.
Or they Defer payment of income over a period of time so as to lower their taxes due for each year. There are more ways but you get the picture.
You know how data can be manipulated to seem to say something other than the truth and that is what the simplistic explanations of tax payments does. I won't bore you but if you have any questions please feel free to ask regardless of your political beliefs; as I say taxes affect us all.
And don't be too hasty to judge how the workingman is treated concerning taxes. It is pretty much universal that the ones who actually do work tend to end up paying the frieght for everyone in all countries.

As usual Manual has his facts wrong.... [message #54750 is a reply to message #54744] Tue, 18 October 2005 08:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mr Vinyl is currently offline  Mr Vinyl
Messages: 407
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
The discussion is about Federal income taxes which has absolutely nothing to do with state and local taxes. In other words the states have a separate income tax in many cases. If the Federal income taxes are cut that has no effect what so ever on state taxes. Same goes for local taxes. Federal income taxes are a completely separate system from state and local income taxes. When ManualBlock could not prove anything about Federal income taxes he now tries to incorporate state and local taxes. Next he will try to include the mints left on pillows at hotels. Stay tuned.

Re: I like the discussion of tax... [message #54763 is a reply to message #54746] Tue, 18 October 2005 21:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike.e is currently offline  Mike.e
Messages: 471
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
Hi manualblock.

NZ is deeply lefty. Those nasty right wingers ought to pay more taxes! is the general consensus. No one likes to think about the serious things which are most important.

The majority see the rich as being lazy,pompous and basically evil. I dont care for their extravangances,they are generally being productive for the country.

To me the ultimate aim is to have a productive country. I dont see that happening with extreme left governments.

Don't be too hasty to judge this discussion as nasty or non-informative.

Often these topics are quite heated,is the nature of it.

We have progressive tax here too,with the top rate of ~33% at 69,000$ which has been unchanged for years- so the gov gets more and more revenue

You know how data can be manipulated to seem to say something other than the truth and that is what the simplistic explanations of tax payments does
I know it certainly can be. An absence of important data is the first thing that comes to mind.

So the wealthier amongst us hide their income by accepting it in stock transfers which are taxed at a much lower rate.
If the tax rates were lowered the revenue would increase due to less avoiding tax through 'tax benefits' yes? I would say that is fair,I might do the same. What tax rate would I accept?I dont know,im a student with thousands of dollars of debt

Here in NZ labour offered 'tax relief' with money being given back to the lower incomes,while national offered tax cuts for the majority of people.

The 'rich should pay more taxes' line doesnt work with me,I think the curve[plank curve?]where eventually taxes are so high revenue decreases is true.

There isnt much incentive to work here.Its getting more socialist but people like it.

Its funny,my mums family are all lefties,my dads family are righties,guess which family is low or high income!

And don't be too hasty to judge how the workingman is treated concerning taxes
Well I know the majority are earning minimum wage -> 1.5 x minimum wage so a small relief in taxes makes a huge difference down there - but then we are aweful savers - Just recently weve been told to quit borrowing for stuff,inflation is nearing 3% now.
Were spendign 12% more than we own everyear apparently.

My dad was researching a monetary system NOT based on debt...

Regards
Mike.e



Re: I like the discussion of tax... [message #54798 is a reply to message #54763] Fri, 21 October 2005 13:49 Go to previous message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Excellent thinking Mike. There is very extensive research done concerning taxation going back to Adam Smith and the Invisible Hand all the way up to "The rising tide floats all boats". Trickle Down Theory; it's endless.
If you believe that people owe a debt to the country that allows them to work,invest and live comfortably then you believe in taxation since all of these services that support that must be paid for somehow as you; I am sure, are well aware of.
How do we collect those funds in such a way that the burden is shared equally amongst the citizens. Since the poor don't have the means to pay that leaves the top 60% of the population available to provide the necessary funding. The wealthy use more of the resources of the country so I feel they should pay more.
So my question to you is; how do you think it should be done?
Your system sounds pretty similar to ours and to most of the rest of the civilised world. The citizens of these first world countries have designed similar systems out of a sense of fairness and dignity. In that sense I mean such things as supporting the older and less able to work/providing health care for all citizens/ education for all those who desire it. These things to me are the hallmark and the responsibility of all citizens to share as a common burden.
Whats your postition?

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