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In the past three weeks or so I have come across a couple three observations made by audio afficianadas' of note that struck me as serious food for thought that do not follow the usual script we are subjected to mercilessly in redundancies. Mr. Geddes in his observations on RMAF_ Further Comments essay observes his wife saying this about the high end purchasing descisions of audiophiles. She expresses surprise at the price tags on some of the equipment and why anyone would spend such sums on wires or other accessories. Her conclusion is that because there are fans of audio who cannot afford to buy 10k$ loudspeakers they can assauge their need for audio approval by investing in expensive accessories. We always had a running joke regarding that very situation that went; ..why did the audiophile spend 600$ on two 3 ft wires? Becuse his wife wouldn't let him buy the 20k$ speakers. But this observation was very cleverly interpreted by MS. Geddes and has a signifigance for all of us in the hobby. Why? because it is a real intuitive attempt at understanding the motivation of pschycic reward that impacts the descision making process of many of the people participating in the hobby. To find an astute comment anywhere in the literature concerning the real motivation behind choice that doesn't seek to employ the usual suspects dragged out at every opportunity as explanations for behaviour is so refreshing to see that it catches one off guard as to it's importance. We had a small dialogue attended by few but earnest individuals on the Dungeon regarding some comments made by John Broskie of TubeCad Journal fame that again involved a unique perspective that was refreshingly candid. Here's another; "When designing an amplifier my simplist goal is to reproduce music. I then consider music as an emotional expression transmitted in three dimensions through a pressure modulation in the air. It comes to me encoded as a time varying voltage of one or more channels. I wish to return this to an emotional expression but I do not have all of the original information; by the very nature of the recording process information is lost. I therefor DO NOT feel guilty about dramatising what I have to work with to increase the emotional content in keeping with my INTERPRETATION of the original performance. The Engineering interpretation of this gaol in building an amplifier involves the easy stuff....Distortion is a concern ofamplifier design. As you can tell from the previous paragraph I am not particularly worried about harmonic distortion. The amplifier should be able to deliver low distortion of the components of the that are important to communicating the emotion. To me this means making sure the distortion inherent in all amplifiers does not get in the way; but not to chase measurements of distortion just because it is POSSIBLE." Ed Simon. Rather than provide a tedious reflection on why these types of observations are critical to the maturity of thought we must chase in this hobby I leave the opinions to the readers except to say thank you to the authors for some refreshing perceptual observations not seen on a regular basis amonsgt all the equipment fetishism and engineering hype displayed on the internet hobby forums.
My pessimistic assessment is that the huge amounts spent on accessories is pure elitism. People spend kilobucks on cables because they can. Why would anyone in their right mind buy a Mercedes S class? Because it is the most expensive sedan out there? Americans in particular seem to fall into two categories: Those with unlimited means who buy the most expensive items available regardlessly of quality or functionality, and those of limited means who buy the least expensive items available regardless of quality or functionality. Why is there Wal-Mart? Why is there no manufacturing in the USA? This kills the good but moderately priced market in any category. A $1000 two channel amp is becoming very hard to find, and those of us out in the weeds will have to mail order it. Fortunately the current crop of cheap HT receivers, particularly the digital ones are becoming very good. But I digress.... Don't get me wrong here. If done right and for the right reasons, dollars can equal quality. But I don't think that this was your point of departure. I think you meant the you are amused at people spending huge amounts for money of parts that don't make much difference. My answer is pure elitism. Bob
Thats a small percentage of what I mean't by the post. What motivated me to write was the revelation I felt upon reading MS. Gedde's assesment of the behaviours she witnessed at the RMAF. Regardless of how we; meaning myself, yourself and most of the rest of the audio community examine the audio landscape; we don't have an outsiders perspective. She provided that for me at least and I found it extremely interesting to see. And what I found surprising is the several essays I read within the last week that had points of view that you don't normally see explained in audio sites. Ms Geddes;Mr. Broskie and Mr Simon all offered up some perspectives that are uniquely different from the standard fare we see so I thought to comment and maybe generate some interest in alternative points of view. They are well written examinations of the hobby that are enjoyable to read. Short and to the point but definately food for thought. As for your point I agree with that analysis. At this point in my life I am surrounded by newly minted real estate wealth transformed into material goods; and to be truthfull it gets redundant listening to folks drone on and on regarding the supposed meritts of all this consumer largesse. I don't know if you find that to be true but I am in the strange position of defending high end audio to people who drive and own exactly the things you mention; while I get into my 1993 Buick Roadmaster and turn on my old Altecs with my 27" TV. As I age I find less and less motivation to own things. I am more interested in learning how the world works. Thanks for the thoughtfull reply.
This reply pertains more to the discussion in the Tower on Mr. Broskie's thoughts, although I agree most definitely with your "perceptions". In your discussions about ratios of money spent between equipment and media, it was suggested that it is very reasonable and appropriate to spend at least half of the cost of your system on media. I was trying to explain to my wife today that since I only have about $1000 in my system at this point, but well over 200 CD's (and I've gotten rid of that many in the last year or so and I've started collecting vinyl for a future TT/pre), that I really need to upgrade my equipment so I can possibly attain audiophile status. She replied with a "I don't think so". So what's the proper way to sneak the upgrade? I sure as hell ain't spending $600 on cables. I'm trying the DIY tube amp route because it's easier to get the parts a bit at a time
Easy, here's how; have the parts sent to your friends address then bury the boxes and destroy the reciepts. Start an offshore account in the Cayman Islands and slowly drain the families budget so as not to arouse suspician. Then when they find out there is no money left and your wifes lawyer sends that divorce letter along with her demands for equitable distribution; they won't be able to touch the account and you can show your new expensive stereo to your kids when they visit you in that studio apartment over the bodega for their mandatory visitation week in the summer.
That's pretty damn funny!!!!!! I've had too many singleminded hobbies over the years to surprise the wife. She just shrugs, accuses me of becoming my grandfather who was an incessant tinkerer, and tells me to please not spend any more money than I can afford to. Pretty understanding all in all. I can't wait to go to GPAF to meet some of you and hear some good setups!
The speculation just occurred to me on a study which needs to be done: What is the percentage of functionally tone deaf individuals involved in the audiophile and speaker building hobbies? Men lose of their hearing after 40 IIRC so isn't a lot of this just chasing a chimera? I think that to separate out the tone deaf from the audially acute, everyone that raises an opinion on the brightness of this or the boominess of that ought to have a professional audiologist test and that test posted in his signature-- like people do with their system builds. I'm pretty confident that another speculation of mine is correct and that is as a previous discussion included, a large amount of listening to radio-- AM or FM, it doesn't matter-- will influence how you hear the human voice. So the effort will be made in the design concept to mimic the compressions, echoic effects and other audio enhancements that one hears on the radio or tv. It is really unfortunate that women don't take an interest in these forums but the reason for that and rightly so to a large degree is that they are about piffle. It's a form vs. content thing which is another discussion the beginning of which starts with the question: Do you do this because you can't play an instrument? I will cop to a bit of that myself.
Yeah; wives are o'kay; they treat us like one of the kids.
Lon; what the heck is piffle? Also a lot of the people on this forum actually do play instruments. The hearing thing; even though you are older and cannot hear frequencies above 12k can you still tell live music from recordings?
Surprised she didn't suggest getting rid of some of the CDs
Is my middle name Informal nonsense, idle talk.
Thanks. So what we do here; unlike the women, is formal nonsense and busy talk? I've never heard that expression. Good one. I've always enjoyed talking to women; and I tend to agree that my hobbies are kinda pointless. I probably should be spending more time fixing the house. "Excuse me Mr. big-shot electrical genious; maybe you can fix the overhead lights in the den? I need a flashlight to find the bathroom in there." Anyone remmember a TV show called the " Life Of Riley"; with William Bendix?
No way! I went through my collection and got rid of anything I hadn't listened to for a year or more and that didn't have any sentimental meaning or such. Course I kept all my guitar reference music and some of the classic rock stuff, but got rid of most of the junk I collected during the 80's.
Yeah, I watched it when it came on TV after listening to it on radio. Remember his neighbor Gillis? Tom D'Andrea I believe. On a different note my mc-275 amp developed a problem so I put the ss amp back in and can hear an immediate difference in sound. The ss sound is good but sounds bottled up sort of. Probably better descriptive terms out there but it just seems closed in compared to the tube amp. Must be the different distortion in the tube amp. I have to go spray a couple of acres since it looks like no rain for a few hours.
Spray a couple acres?? Man; that sounds like work. I have to go out and sweep the patio. Riley used to call his wife," Honeybee." And he was always hiding from her but he could never outwit her. Gillis; was he good in that part or what?
Junk during the 80's; that pretty much describes the whole music scene then. Tell me; how did you manage to throw stuff out? I need a course in how to do that. I threw some records out then went back to the curb and brought a couple back in. "Geez; I can't throw that out; it's good."
Just about finished spraying and guess what? It starts to rain. So now I can do it all over again. I forgot to ask you are your 846's the A or B model? I have never heard a pair of the B model speakers. They're supposed to sound better because of the change in venting.
Well, most any guitar music I kept ---Clapton, Vaughan, any blues of course, and anything that had a song or technique I admired on it. Any hair band junk that didn't have a cool guitar part on it went. That was about 99% of them. Granted, most people don't take into account that a lot of those musicians were studio musicians with impeccable technique and abilities, but the songs were just soooo cheesy. Unfortunately it was either that, or Billy Ocean--ewwww. Course we had Metallica and such so not all was lost. Like I said if it wasn't a classic (Stones, etc....,I hadn't listened to it in at least a year, and it was something that could be replaced later, out it went... Now equipment is another matter. My main system until this fall was a 1978 Kenwood Integrated amp and same year tuner with a set of Polk Monitor 5B's. But after hearing the Stoetkit and other tube amps at Waynes, I have future plans for a tube system. Unfortunately, I don't make much money and with two kids it'll probably take me a year or so to just gather all the parts to build that 6EM7 amp.
Talk about taking piffle to a new level. :-/ Oh well. I know that in the Fitzmaurice forum there's a lot of musicians. But the stuff they build -- you know for rock bands and stuff-- how many of _them_ do you think are tone deaf or have tinitus? As to the live vs reproduced . I think I good argument can be made for the is it live or is it Memorex question. By this I mean that the critical faculty is using a false comparison: radio or other prerecorded processed sound. I got into all that after a bad build. What the guy said about the build in a very professional hobbyist way had to be bs. He had to be tone deaf. I've come to think this about anyone using a driver under 4 inches like the Tangband W871. My TB's have gone into everything: TL, sealed box ported out the back. I did get sort of a good effect from open baffle on a board but that is less than handy or elegant. Hey, maybe it's me who's tone deaf. I really don't have any good baseline for comparison. That's why I proposed audiology exams. I mean if you can spend thousands of dollars on a rig, it should be small change to have an exam you prob'ly haven't had since grade school.
Mine have the round vents one on each side. I believe thats the B but maybe not. Whats your opinion of the Valencias?
We have old time radio around ehre that I think public radio gets on satellite feed. So I'm hearing the radio shows I was not old enough to hear but remember the tv show from real time. There are discussions about lots of things on the net... more piffle than is conceivable. I picked a topic like this that I have a basic interest in not so much because I can do a lot of building but because I have an interest in the design process-- as art and creativity. Sort of like kustom kars or motorcycles. These last two are 'guy things' I have no personal experience with at all. But the low rider thing fascinates me as an artistic expression. Something similar in the way of a group build is being done on the Full Range Driver forum with a cnc operator using the designs of an audio engineer. Women would like this stuff more if you took out of context and put it on display in an art gallery. I sort of had this experience at a show at the Calatrava-designed new space for the Milwaukee Art Museum. We saw a display of craftsman projects in wood and at that point I could expound on the work of James Krenov and sound like a big shot.
I think you are being to hard on yourself; your hearing is mostlikely fine. Just because a guy builds something and then puts up a website doesn't neccessarily mean he knows anything. I wrote a half dozen posts on SD speakers a while back because there was a small gathering here of guys who follow that line of speaker. They do some things great and some not so great. I am not a huge fan; not because they don't sound good on some recordings but because I feel they are very specific to a certain type of music. On that music they sound wonderfull. But you got to like that music enough to play it exclusively. So Why does it mean that because you are not hearing out to 18k you can't tell what sounds good? It may just be that what sounds good will sound good to everyone regardless of what their hearing is physically capable of.
Well I'm probably tone deaf as well as flat footed. When someone feels compelled to add a suffix to their name in conversation I tend to go find someone else to talk to. By that I mean when someone tells you in informal conversation they are an audiophile, PHD, MD or any other combintaion of letters my ego detecting meter pegs out and it's time to find another conversation. To me it's about music. It either sounds good or bad. If bad then all I want to do is make it sound better. Some of my best musical memories come from listening to a AM radio that I had added another speaker to. I knew then it wasn't the quality of my friends stereo but it didn't stop me from deriving hours of enjoyment from it. I haven't changed since then. I can appreciate a really good system and all the latest technological improvements but I'm still content with what I have. The only thing I've added is a cd &dvd player. They say ignorance is bliss. Maybe that's why I'm happy with what I have.
I very well may be able to hear out to those higher frequencies... my guess is that I can but it's just a guess. What are those ringing sounds that computer processors make? I can't keep a tube here because I will hear it _going_ all the time. And more than I few folks are insufferable to listen to on the talk radio-- things I never used to listen to but now that streaming audio is available I have been able to find more quality discussion OTOH I can listen to a table radio and be, you know, _happy_ if something good is playing.
Yours are the B model. In the A's the vent is around the ends of the horn. Which isn't as efficient as the vents on yours. You have to take what I say with a dose of salt. I've had mine since 1966. I always wanted a pair of model 19's until I talked to a man who has lots of Altec speakers and he said "keep the Vals. They sound better than 19's" Maybe he's right I don't know. If you like the sound of them than none of the newer tower looking things can compare sound wise. They'll be more "accurate" for sure but not anywhere near as musical. I did dampen my horns with automotive dampening material so I can run the attenuation knobs closer to null This is not to offend any of the speaker builders here. I'm just relating what I like and it doen't make a pinch of difference in the overall scheme of things.
Yes, Somewhat related is the fact that I started to follow the building forums closely (after having done kits previously over a period of 20-30 years) was because I was looking for low poer designs that would make the digital music I had found (concert jazz band and and other things) sound... _adequate_ over what is is normally sold as computer speakers. I've never owned any computer speakers. I build from scratch so I followed the directions for hooking up the sound card to a small receiver I had which was a Nakamichi at the time. The Nak was very small and had it;s own set of mini 2 way speakers which-- like all 2 way minispeakers-- weren't much count. The first advice I got with this arrangement was to cut out the backs of the minis-- something that wouldn't occur to me. Talk about the Fostex line was going pretty well then as it still does and Madisound is not very far away for shipping so I got a pair of FE127e's. My first mod was dropping in the Fostex to the mini cabs with the backs cut off. A happy coincidence was that I could put the fronts back on and the molded plastic formed a wave guide for the single Fostex on the box. I used a cork to plug up the port and left the 25 cent tweeter in there for seal. That setup lasted me quite while.
Hey; this was a nice conversation. Very enjoyable to speak with all of you. Nice group.
Re: Yep; if it's something you like then it sounds good on anything. Nice conversation to all.
I've enjoyed the conversation also. Anybody remember the comics you got when you bought a pair of Buster Brown shoes? One was Mary Jane and her adventures with Sniffles the mouse. To become small she would chant "Poof, poof piffles, make me as small as Sniffles." So there you have it. The ultimate use of piffle Remember this? "Hi, I'm Buster Brown. I live in a shoe. That's my dog Tyge, he lives in there too."
Yes; They are rolled off on the frequency extreme's and a little sharp on the highs but they do the thing; make music. Not a lot of speakers do that well. I have all the parts for a Model 19; I had thought to someday build one, I wonder if it is worth it. Say; whats growing in those fields?
Just pasture for the sheep. We raise a few Suffolk here. I retired from the Corps of Engineers and went to work for a farmer. A lot less stress I'm out of the market for 19's after realizing the only gain I'd hear would be better & lower bass response because of the larger cabinet volume. So I'll go with what I have.
Re: One last Piffle--Armadillos Come in pairs
We had a trivia contest from the local university in which every year they would play a jingle recorded from someplace: Armadillos come in pairs Any you know what they say, it's more fun that way. It wasn't until many years later that I learned the jingle was about shoes.
How do you convey "emotion" through a device?
HI John, her eare ome thoughts: 1. I fail to see how a device can convey emotion. It can certainly EXCITe emotion, and often that is to dowith things like: a) how much was spent on it. b) what do the "critics" hae to say about it? c) How does it look? which answers your prevous question about why folksoend so much on cable. Cos it excites emotion. -akhilesh
By telling you that it will make you special.
This $600 wire will take you to the next level of Nervana. Come to think of it, I remeber a brand of cables by that name. The majority of sales techniques pandor to our insecurities by boosting our EGO's through sex. Or this can be done by making us feel superior by causing us to think the product in question is a magic potion. A potion that will make us verile and strong, or even possibly lead us to Nervana. "Dumb all over, and a little ugly on the side" And we wonder why there are so many arrogant control freak's wrecking havoc on the world, the Alpha. There is a belief that we were made with the free will to choose. To choose to be led by our animalistic instincts, or to be guided by our spirit. Norris Wilson
Makes sense to me. The V's sound just fine really. I wouldn't mind a nice furniture grade cabinet though.
Re: How do you convey "emotion" through a device?
How do you convey emotion through a device?? How about a piano device? Or a violin device? As far as how much Mr Simon spent on the Device; he built it. It doesn't really look all that great; just a plain black box.
Re: By telling you that it will make you special.
I'd like to find some cabinets as mine look like the wreck of the Hesperus. After 30+ years and 20+ moves they look a little ratty.
Hi Manualblock, My main point is the tools that are used in promoting products in the market place. They usually play to our personal insecurities and animalistic instincts, lust and superiority, the Alpha. Suggesting, that their products some how will get you babes, or make you whole in some fashion. These are the standard marketing tools of the trade, automobile and audio cables advertisements are a good example. Do you remeber seeing the cable advertisement in a Stereo magazine that had a naked lady posing with a power cable running up her back? I wonder what that was suppose to represent? I have to also agree with Bob Brines on his point of Elitism. It would be hard for me to justify spending $600 for a set of cables, even if I was rolling in money. But, to be fair, I have heard a significant difference in signal quality between a pair of $450 interconnects, and a pair of $2500 interconnects. But, on the other hand, I have read where many people who roll their own cables. Have heard a significant difference in signal quality between $50 worth of cable parts, over a $450 set of pre-manufactured cables. Sometimes it can just come down to personal priorities, and the size of your bank account. I would not want to begrudge anyone who has earned a good living the right to spend it on what ever they desire. But, aren't audio signal cables and wires, essentually an R/C filter? And I wonder how much psycho-acoustics plays in our audio purchasing decisions? Sorry for the RANT, it is just an opinion. Norris Wilson
Norris You don't have to apologise for the rant that was the purpose of the post in the first place. I posted three examples of essays that I just happened to read in the past week; it struck me as odd that I would see three points of view like that in one week. Points of view that did not seem to follow the usual rap we see on all of these threads that deal with how people percieve things audio in nature. Now all of your points are well taken and well recorded on many of the discussions we see on ART. Let me ask you this; when you listen to a piece of gear; do you feel that you think it sounds better if it is shiny and expensive looking? How about the times you have heard something you thought sounded good and the unit was not even in sight? Did that change your opinion when you finally saw the unit; and it looked like crap? But I only posted those examples of others who wrote certain opinions we don't see that often as food for thought. And the post got a good response. I just didn't want it to be percieved as me proposing those same tired old arguments regarding sound and how it is percieved. I just ask that people read the posts and really try to think outside the box on this. It's good to see you participate as well as everyone else; because I don't think this issue is all that simple and the more people who actually put some real thought into this the better the outcome will be. Remmember; if marketting was all that simple and influenceing people was all that easy; would companies spend literally billions of dollars on research trying to find ways to influence purchasing descisions?
Norris- "But, on the other hand, I have read where many people who roll their own cables. Have heard a significant difference in signal quality between $50 worth of cable parts, over a $450 set of pre-manufactured cables." Ever notice how if you build something yourself you more often than not like your finished product over something else. Emotional attachement to the process, maybe ?
Hi Manualblock, I will try to answer your questions without going of on another rant. 1.) "Let me ask you this; when you listen to a piece of gear; do you feel that you think it sounds better if it is shiny and expensive looking? " >Not as of recent years, but I have in the past. I have learned in recent that music is more of a psychological experience, and is more enjoyable to me listening with my eyes closed. Music can sooth my usually disturbed emotion, but looking at the piece of equipment is usually unmoving. 2.) "How about the times you have heard something you thought sounded good and the unit was not even in sight? Did that change your opinion when you finally saw the unit; and it looked like crap? " >Not normally, my thoughts of physical appearance does not factor into my perception of sound quality. I have heard exceptionaly good sounding amplifiers built on cigar boxes. You can't judge a book by its cover. My overall perseption of quality does take into concideration of the physical build quality and sound qulity of the peice of equipment as a whole. But, price is usually one of my main gauges for what my overall opinion is of the piece of retail audio equipment in question. If the equipment sounds good, there is a fairly substantial physical build quality, type and brand of parts, as well as construction techniques used. And there is a fair price attached to this equipment, I usually deem it as a qulity piece. I have always frowned on a piece of equipment that is of fair construction that has an astrinomical price attached to it no matter how good it sounds, like Lamm for instance. I feel these prices are more related to the elitism and Ego tactics used to get many insecure soles departed from their money. I can barely remember meeting young women before I was married 25 years ago. Women who were beautiful to the eye, but were selfish and arrogant when they opened their mouths, it always seemed to be about them. This is one of the main tools of the marketing industry, one that I do not like, Meism. I view most marketing to be just eye candy, but it is what is underneath that counts. Marketing is usually transparent and has no real substance. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Norris Wilson
Shane, You are absolutely right. No Mother has an ugly child. But, as a grouchy old father, I have made some really ugly boogers on the way. DIY audio I mean. Norris
Hey, as long as the first "real" amp I make works, I'm happy!
Funny; I remmember every girlfriend I ever had. You know the little things; how they walked and how they smell; what perfume they wore is a couple biggies for me. I mean the girls you date here; not the oneshots. Which brings up a good topic; the music you tie in with each woman you dated. What was playing and how it affected your mood at the time. Good one; Norris.
Shane, And the seeds of DIY audio will be planted. This first amplifier will be what I hope to be one of many more enjoyable DIY experiences for you. Good luck on the amplifier and keep us posted on how it turns out. Norris
I'm soooo with you on this one. When I make tapes for the car, I label them with calendar years or names of people, and those represent the people in my life or the seasons I went through with them. As an example, I have tapes named 1979, 1999, Melissa, etc.
Well; I can't say as I have organised on that level. I admire that dedication. I mostly have it stored biologically; which probably means at some point it will all disappear. Although they say you remmember the older things the best so maybe not.
Oh the memories, When I was more concerned about good sex. Now, my idea of a good time, is a good bowel movement. I must be getting old. I better not let my wife hear any of my old memories. If she did, it would be in the dog house for me. Norris
I'm not sure that it's being organized, I just gotta give the tapes a name. Since most of them are collections rather than album sides, I put a name on the collection that fits the mood. Actually, more often than not, I record a collection to fit a mood.
Exactly right.
Oooo - I've got some of those, but I don't dare name them! If I learned one thing at school it was in criminology class (pud elective). Most spousal homocides when committed by the wife are done with a heavy blunt object while the husband is sleeping. No Thank You!!!!
Well, mine is current news. I just don't share much personal stuff on the web. Maybe make an inference here and there but that's it. I've been through some changes in the last year and that's all I care to say. But regarding criminology class - Yikes! You're probably right. Think Lorena Bobbitt! The message is definitely clear.
The Message is clear?? Clear as a muddy lake. Will there be an annuoncement sometime soon? Also; the Jamaican girls like to use hot oatmeal; lie down for your nap and the covers yanked off and surprise surprise!
What I meant by "the message is clear" is that if you have a wife like Lorena Bobbitt, be cool or run away or both. As for personal matters, let's talk offline, not here.