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Anyone Ever Tried These Drivers In Line Array ?
I am talking about the OLD Eminent Technology ribbon drivers licensed to Level 9 who made them, and made computer speakers and the Monsoon "high end" speakers out of them ? I wonder, has anyone ever measured this driver. VMPS uses a modified version of it in their ribbon speakers. It is said that some Drago guy modifies the drivers for them, but maybe the driver is OK as is ? There are zillions of these computer speakers popping up used on Ebay. Anyone got the low down on this driver. I know the Inventor of it Bruce Thigpen abandoned it for a newer design driver he uses in his current speakers. Why don't I see anyone but VMPS using this driver ? In fact, I have never seen it even mentioned anywhere in a Line array discusion.
Here is a picture of the driver in the link below. I see people talking about line arrays of super expensive Scan Speak and Seas drivers, but never see these drivers even mentioned. Shoot, I have seen pairs of the computer speakers sell on Ebay for 50 dollars. That means only 25 bucks a driver, certainly cheaper then the expensive convetional drivers used in some line arrays. http://www.vmpseurope.com/RM2.htm
Re: Anyone Ever Tried These Drivers In Line Array ?
I've looked for a place to actually purchase the driver you are talking about and haven't seen a place, much less a cost. There are som many options with a line array that its not necessary to get exotic. Where are you located? North America? Europe? OZ? elsewhere? Marlboro
Sunny Florida, USA! Check Ebay, there are hundreds of these computer speakers coming up for sale. This Drago guy evedently sells them, maybe not the EXACT one he does for VMPS, but I know hje sells them. Thilo from TC Sounds who makes monster subwoofer drivers is coming out with a line source. I THINK he plans or is making his OWN ribbon. In a conversation he mentioned Drago, and I THINK he said he was loooking at somdrivers from him. This would indicate to me that Drago sells to anyone who will buy his stuff ? I wonder if anyone has ever run a frequency sweep/distortion measurement on this driver ? It will not play real low, I know that! Maybe THAT is why people are not using it, because with a cone driver you eliminate the need for a crossover right in the vital lower midrange ? I wonder if Jim, Rick or Danny ever played with this driver ? Strange, I hardly ever see it mentioned, or any data published for it ?
Thanks for your reply! I am not a speaker designer, but have been told by those who are that in a crossover, especially a first order one, you want significant overlap at the crossover point ? IOW, each driver should contribute it's part to the crossover. Now, if you say these drivers are only usable to 500 to 600 hz, HOW does VMPS cross over at 280 hz at only 6 db per octave ? Would not there be a hole in the frequency response ? Or, are they relying on the woofer/woofers to fill in this missing territory ? If what you say is true, and 1/2 of the music is below 500 hz as I have been told, then I am listening to a 10 inch woofer in my RM 40's reproducing half my music, LOL The older pair of RM 40's I have was advertised as being a ribbon speaker from 166 hz up. The newer ones have a raised crossover point of 288 hz. My RM 40's use the ribbons up to 10 k, and you say they only go out to 7K ? The RM 40's I bought used, and are but one of 14 pairs of speakers I currently own. I have been unable to get them to sound right since I have owned them. Do not worry about "hurting my feelings" because my EGO is not involved with these. I hear something really wrong with my pair, and I am asking for help and opinions. I always seem to get "You just do not have the right stuff in front of them, the putty isn't right, the levels are wrong, they are not bi wired, your wire is not big enough, your amp is shit, you are using a CD Changer, your DAC is bad, etc, etc, etc. Even though my B&W 801's, my old Magnepan MG 3A's, My VR 4 JR's's, and my new JBL L 7's sound just fine with my set up. Here is what I hear Jose, I hear a speaker with problems, big time My ears tell me this midrange driver is not what it is cracked up to be at all. I hear peaks, dips, and strange distortions in this driver, THIS is what I hear. I was hoping someone would have some measurements I could see, to see what is going on with these things. Is it comb filtering, the driver itself, the crossover, or WHAT ?
Looks like the compensation did not work at your listening position ? The best I have ever got mine sounding required turning my panels down, way down. This made the woofers play louder, and filled in the hole, But caused efficiency problems,. It also made the images "jump out" of the top woofer. They use a staggered roll off of the two 10 inch woofers. The top woofer is really the one going up in frequency to meet the ribbons. Problem is, at 6 feet tall, this places you about 50 degrees off it's vertical axis! I have went to using two of the same drivers in my RM 40's. I need to know about possible interference patterns in my choice of a crossover point. I have an electronic crossover that is 24 db fixed slop, but adjustable. My RM 40 has the TRT capacitors in it. My instincts tell me the only hope for these is to bypass the VMPS crossover, including the TRT's, and use the 24 DB one. But, I am limited in my crossover choices because of the RM 40 design. It is what it is, and it is what I have. The reason I am over here is seeking help! I want to know IF it is feasible to make these work, or if this is just a bad design that will never sound like I want it to. The VMPS forum has not been much help, just everyone telling me I need this or that, or don't have this, etc, etc. This WAS the Flagship design, and one would presume it was SUPPOSED to be right once/ Now, it's "wrong" and now I gotta have some new midwoofer, or CD Wavegude, etc, etc, etc to make it sound right. What excuse will there be once I invest money in all the stuff I now "need" "Oh, but you don't have the right wire, your DAC is shit, your putty isn't right, your room isn't treated, your music is poorly recorded, you NEED this amp, etc, etc, etc. No thanks!
Here Is A Picture Of The Speakers Jose - Take A Look ?
Here is a picture of them if anyone wants to see the physical configuration. The two 10 inch woofers have different roll off points, done by using different magnets on the woofers. The lower 10" woofer is called a "mega woofer" and rolls off sooner, the top woofer is called a "midwoofer" and "meets" the ribbon, at least it is supposed to ? I did not like this arrangement, and was getting a huge hole in the 150 to 600 hz region, imparting a thin, etched, super detailed quality sounding anything but like music. So, I got another pair of "midwoofers", and used them. This sounds a little better, but it still ain't right. Mathmetically, does anyone know HOW far I can take the two woofers up in frequency before I get into severe interference patterns ? The ribbons use a first order high pass, and there is only an inductor on the woofer. My gut instinct is that for these speakers to work at all the woofers need to play higher up, and so do the ribbons. Jose said they don't have any output until 500 hz, and others have said the same to me. Then why cross em in at 280 hz if there is no output there ? So guys, my question is "How far up do you think I can safely take the woofers with a 24 DB crossover before severe interference patterns hurt me ? I cam measure the vertical spacing ? I can't help but thinking that if the midrange ribbons don't like to play low, that some of what I hear is the VMPS crossover is trying to force the ribbons to do what they do not want to do. That is, play low. Maybe they will not blow up, but they might not sound good either being forced to play what they do not like ?
here it is below, sorry! http://www.sedonaskysound.com/vmps_rm40.htm
>>There are zillions of these computer speakers popping up used >>on Ebay. I can't find any, unless you search 'monsoon' and you get three hits. >>Why don't I see anyone but VMPS using this driver ? Not many people build line arrays. RE: ribbon. The driver you talk about is a magnetic planar, it's not a real ribbon tweeter. Don't worry, even manufacturers of the products generically call both technologies a ribbon when they share nothing in common. lol >>I see people talking about line arrays of super expensive Scan >>Speak and Seas drivers, but never see these drivers even mentioned. >>Shoot, I have seen pairs of the computer speakers sell on Ebay for >>50 dollars. That means only 25 bucks a driver, certainly cheaper >>then the expensive convetional drivers used in some line arrays. You can use a quality $20 - $30 cone midrange driver in a line array with great results. My budget array uses 49 cent buyout drivers. lol You can use $100 - $200 midranges too. You can probably make the monsoon array work well too. But I'd buy one driver first to audition it and compare the sound to other drivers to get an idea on where it stands. >>Now, if you say these drivers are only usable to 500 to 600 hz, >>HOW does VMPS cross over at 280 hz at only 6 db per octave ? A commercial product doesn't mean it's engineered well in spite of what the brand image tells you. The reason I DIY is because I don't like store bought speakers, otherwise life would be so easy just to talk into the store and buy something, you can take up another hobby like fishing. hehehe Hypothetical. What if you used that driver for 500hz - 10,000hz operation. What are you going to use for low pass 500hz? What are you going to use for >10khz ? Lets assume that driver is indeed awesome and can play down to 500hz with authority, but has a weak top end, what are you gonna do about it? Now you need another tweeter line, you need a midbass line to cover from subwoofer to 500hz. You open up a new can of worms. On the other hand, you can take a simple $30 Dayton 6" midwoofer, sealed and integrate with a subwoofer easy. Do you want to be a bass maniac? Then port that Dayton midrange and tune to 45 - 55hz to get more SPL. Use a $4 - $30 tweeter line and this simple 2 way loudspeaker can pretty much rule over commercial offerings that cost in the $20k - $30k range, maybe more.
Is this, a Line array pretty much sounds like what ever it's drivers sound like in the first place. IOW, a bunch of vifa mids and tweeters are going to sound like a bunch of Vifa mids and tweeters. And, a bunch of cheap drivers are gonna sound like a bunch of cheap drivers. Yes, it may play louder with less distortion, and may image differently, but a duck is a duck is a duck. IME, to get a REALLY good sounding Line Array takes really good drivers. Actually, sometimes I think one might be better off builing a conventional speaker with really good drivers, rather then a line array with cheaper drivers, assuming the same budget. If you think you can take a bunch of 50 cent drivers and see God by constructing a line array, fine. But I will bet that if you took those same drivers, and made a smaller system out of them, the sound would be similar.\ Maybe it won't play as loud with as low distortion, and it will image different, but the sonic character of a speaker is determined by it's drivers, all things equal/ That is why guys like Rick Craig make Excelarrays, and use all out drivers.
"IME, to get a REALLY good sounding Line Array takes really good drivers. "Actually, sometimes I think one might be better off builing a conventional speaker with really good drivers, rather then a line array with cheaper drivers, assuming the same budget. "If you think you can take a bunch of 50 cent drivers and see God by constructing a line array, fine." You've never actually built a line array, have you? You're just talking about it. You aren't aware of the characterisitcs of what multiple speakers do to FR, distortion, dynamic range, etc. If you'd actually built one using speakers that one would never use when there is only one(but now you've put 20 of them or 30 of them in a row, and electronically crossed them), you would know that what you are saying only has reference for those who must b elieve the bought the best and paid the most. You do need to stick with either store bought, or with somebody's kit system. You don't want to be doing this on your own. Marlboro
I was talking to Fred in Texas about a needles array he built. He said it sounded good, but like the Vifa drivers it contained. NOT that Vifa are bad either! Sure, sometimes a cheap speaker will sound bad by itself, due to distortion, and an array of them can sound good. But, all things being equal, an array of stellar drivers will sound better then an array of 49 cent MCM specials. THAT is what I am saying. Can we please get this thread back on track ? I am NOT anti line array, quite the contrary. Can we get back to looking at the problems I am having getting my speaker to sound right ? I have two ten inch woofers seperated by about 54 inches center to center. How far up can I take them in frequency at 24 DB per octave before interference patterns become severe ?
Look at the wavelength calculator I found ?
The spacing in my VMPS RM 40's between the two 10 inch woofers is 54 inches. According to the wavelength calculator, that is one wavelength at 250 hz. I read somewhere that speakers need to be crossed over BEFORE they are 1/2 wavelength apart. That would mean I need to cross at 125 HZ ? I can do that, but my ribbons will not go down there. NOW I think I see why VMPS staggers the roll off of their woofers ? I really did not want to go back to the stagger tuned woofers because I do not like the idea of part of my midrange being reproduced by a 10 inch woofer stuck high in the air. I am sensitive to Image shifts, and when I have the levels of the main ribbons set low enough to blend with the woofers, I can sometimes here the Image "jump" up to that top woofer. Dunleavy used widely spaced woofers in the SC 4, anyone know how he got away with it ?
Re: Here Is A Picture Of The Speakers Jose - Take A Look ?
Wow, STILL a dip even bringing the woofers clear up to 700 hz ? These ribbon panels do not like to play low! I hear a big hole in my speakers. Because of the woofer spacing in the RM 40 cabinets, I am not sure how far up I can safely take my woofers w/o problems ? One thing for sure, the low order crossover must go! Man, you had to take a test panel of 4 midranges clear up to 700 hz to make it sound right ? Did you ever measure the mids all by themselves ? I wonder why they cross them in so low in their designs ? I have played mine all by themselves, and hear very little output down low, but don't have test gear.
This thread was about the monsoon drivers right? Now you are talking about a new topic "cheap drivers vs. expensive drivers'. Price doesn't always correlate to performance. A low priced driver doesn't mean it's bad sounding. A high priced driver doesn't guarantee great sound either. Buyout drivers that cost 49 cents doesn't imply they are bad sounding, it just so happens they are low in cost. Take advantage of the situation. Did I mention the 49 cent drivers were modded with cone treatments to improve the sound ? This is typical with more expensive drivers that use paper cones, they have treatments. lol Give a chicken to 10 chefs and you have 10 different tasting chicken soups. The trick when you DIY is to know how to make a competitive soup. lol Before the budget array is built, I made a 1/4 scale model to test the synergy of PT2 and 4" midwoofers. I determined that there is potential to make a good sound system from this simple scaled down test. Later, after the big array was built, optimized, the sound is much more amazing than my scaled down model. The reasons why it's better sounding is it has much lower distortion at the same SPL as the scale model. I'm all for using high end drivers if your budget allows. I just don't see anything special with the monsoon drivers.
Re: "How far up can I take them in frequency at 24 DB per octave before interference patterns become severe?" Is this a three way? At 54 inches apart you cannot cross any higher than 251, and if you want to be 24 db down, then one octave below that which would entail a crossover of 125hz. But you'll be 18db down at 160 or so. Will you be able to actually hear comb filter distortion that low? I don't know. Its like the argument for using 20 Aurum Cantus mid ranges rather than 20 Dayton midranges. When you've cut the quantity of sound that the speaker has to play to only 5% of the total, will you actually be able to hear a difference between the two? I doubt it. Manu a Manu, no question; 20 vs 20, fat chance! Thylantyr and I agree. The world of line arrays is very different than the world of individual speakers with have to deal with thermal compression, mechanical compression, and other issues that the line array eliminates. If you are going with an array of woofers, I'd go for 5 12 inchers like Parts Express has on buyout now(http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=299-776). For $200) Now you have a 17 inch c-to-c. You can cross at 300-500 without any comb filter distortion issues at all. Marlboro
Me either, but the problems I am having in my speaker using the "Monsoon Drivers" may be more related to the crossover between them and their woofers then to the driver itself ? That is why I asked if anyone had ever tested this driver, before I invest considerable time in trying to get these to sound like I want em to. If the driver just isn't very good to begin with, having gross peaks and dips, or weird distortion or ringing, resonances, etc, etc, then someone may be able to save me considerable time and effort in trying to get a crossover right, only to find the driver itself is flawed ? And MAYBE the driver really is all VMPS claims it is, and my problems are just getting the crossover right ?
Thanks Marlboro! I have been reading about your cool line artray. What a great idea using individual 4 inch PVC pipes. I too have a Rane 24 db crossover, the one you have. Also have two excellent Ashly FET 500 amps, real monsters thet sound good too. I am NOT against inexpensive solutions to stuff, and think there are low cost drivers thhat have been overloked that will perform well. I like how you cut the faceplates on your tweeters. I BET that array sounds nice! I have these VMPS RM 40 speakers that I am TRYING to make work for me. The woofers cross at 200 hz right now in mine at 6 db per octave. I am stuck with the 54 inch spacing. Just for kicks, I might simply unhook the stock crossover, leaving the tweeter crossover, and bi amp them with the Rane ? Then, I could simply move the crossover point up and down till they sound better ? In the stock RM 40, the two 10 inch drivers roll off at different points. Right now, I have two of the same woofers in each one, and their roll off is the same.
Do you really need it for the music you play?
Do you really need two woofers? I have a 12 inch GoldSOUND 15.2 mm Xmax DVC rated 250 rms woofer on both sides. Currently they are only in only 2.7 cu ft boxes which are really too small. But they are attached to a 350 w/ch Linear Tech power amp, and put out plenty of bass for anything I need. While I'd like to enlarge their boxes to 7 cu ft each, I wonder if I really need it. Usually I have to keep the woofer balance back by turning down the volume control on the woofer amp to no more than 1:00 or they overwhelm the rest of the system. I've never turned it up past 3:00. Marlboro
Re: Do you really need it for the music you play?
I posted a picture of my VMPS RM 40's. If you saw a picture of it, you would know what I mean. If you ever saw a Dunleavy sc 4, it has stacked woofers that play well up into the midrange. My midrange drivers do not go down real low. Hey, does Goldsound make 15 inch woofers, where did you get them at >
Goldsound only goes up to 12. After that they sell JBL. www.goldsound.net
Re: "My midrange drivers do not go down real low." That's too bad. My SAMMI 3 inchers go down to an FS of 102, with a 3.6 mm Xmax(huge for such a small speaker). But I cross them at 165hz. In a group of 17 per side, they sound fabulous. It was one of the requirements when I built the array. The mids needed to be able to cover the range from about 150 to 2500. Handling only 5.8% of the total sound per side, they do great, and with EASE. My preference is to do the designing first rather than the buying first. I did purchase one of them to start. I hooked in up in a tube cabinet, and disconnected the woofer from the other speaker. So they were handling low volume. It was the SAMMI running full range against a Vifa BC and an Audax tweeter. As long as the volume was low, in a direct comparison, both my wife and i agreed that the Sammi was more transparent and had greater clarity. Marlboro
Yeah, I seen it on the Gold Sound site. Too bad, the woofer you have offers very good value for money. I am hip to the SAMMI drivers too. Some look quite impressive, and prices seem very reasonable. They SURE have a large selection. I have nothing against Korea, been driving Daewoo's for years. Hyundai's are reliable cars, not so sure about Kia's ? I know you are using fiberglass in your tuves, but have you ever considered Kapok ? Do a Google Search for Kapok speaker damping, and the US Patent will come up. Check out the Patent claims ? I learned about it from my Kid. He does Bass Competition, and many of the Bass sound off champs use it instead of Fibefgalss and Wool. I have used it, and feel it is superior to fiberglass. But, that is only my opinion, and have just my seat of the pants feel to back me up. The PVC tubes might allow easy damping experiments in your design. You can try different materials, and graduated density of the materials themselves ? I wish you lived here in Tampa, I would love to hear those speakers! BTW, when you said CHEAP drivers, I thought of some transistor radio cheapies, LOL The SAMMI May be a cheap driver, but it is FAR from a shit driver. The X Max alone of the little guys tells you that! You got one hell of a deal, jumped on it, and now you got your babys! As an audiophile, I share your excitement. I was gonna buy Fred in Texas Needles array he had for sale, but he is in Texas, me in Florida!
>>And MAYBE the driver really is all VMPS claims it is, and my >>problems are just getting the crossover right ? A DIY rule: Don't fall prey to marketing propaganda I wouldn't use a driver that has a weak bottom and top end because it can create more problems to solve, assuming the driver you want has those issues. If you want to build a line array, have you auditioned any arrays to establish a reference point? What is wrong with a coned driver 4" - 6" mated to a line of tweeters $4 - $118 ?
Use of the insulation in the tubes was predicated on two research studies. The first is in the 6th edition of Vance Dickason's THE LOUDSPEAKER COOKBOOK. In this he determined after extensive testing the the most attenuating stuff between acoustistuff, pillow fill and fiberglass was fiberglass. And the most effective density is 4 lb cu ft. There are some caveats but they don't apply between 500hz and 4500 hz. The second is a study sponsored by Rod Elliot on his site that showed the effectiveness of the insulation is dependent on the size of the filament. Pillowfill and acoustimass ar int he vicinity of .05 mm and fiberglass is .01. Acoutical fiberglass is even better at .005. Marlboro
Here is an excerpt from the Patent SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION One object of the present invention is to provide an acoustic damping material which does not suffer from the limitations of the known art. A further object of one embodiment of the present invention is to provide a sound attenuating material suitable for use in a loudspeaker enclosure, comprising kapok material, the kapok for reducing enclosure resonance and driver resonance. The use of the kapok material is an alternative material that comes from the seed of kapok trees "Ceiba pentandra". This material is a natural fibrous material and is relatively inexpensive. The kapok material also has a very low density and thus is ideal for acoustic damping. By selection of the appropriate amount of kapok, the result is lower resonance within the enclosure. It has been found that by making use of the kapok that the resonance is greatly reduced relative to other materials. In addition, the kapok is essentially uninfluenced by the heat generated within the enclosure as the speaker drivers are used. This is in marked contrast to synthetic materials, particularly acoustic foam, which inherently would experience property changes due to thermal degradation.
That is really cool you get the wife involved! This keeps you objective I think. I WAS going to build an array, but a "DEAL" came uo locally on these used VMPS RM 40's. I have had them over a year, and I just can't seem to make them sound right. Yeah, I can get em to sound decent on SOME stuff, but then they change radically on other stuff. I also own 14 other pairs of speakers, including B&W 801's Von Schweikert VR 4 JR's, and JBL L 7's. All these speakers seem to sound decent, if not good, on most material. The VMPS are not like that, when you set their levels for one recording, other recordings sound bad. I REFUSE to believe that they are simply "more revealing". I have owned Electrostats for many years, and never had this problem. Plus,, I owned Magnepan MG 3A's with long ribon tweeter,a most revealing speaker, and they did not sound like this.
Nothing is wrong, and I WAS gonna build an array. Actually, I was gonna buy Fred's Needles array, but it meant driving clear to Texas, LOL These VMPS came up used here local for a fair price.
Well, I haven't read this whole thread but I bet most of the contributors haven't heard or own the computer multimedia targetted monsoon planars. I do. They are hi-passed by the manufacturer at 200Hz. They sound good, .. but are a bit soft on top