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If i had to just keep ONE set of speakers, given what i have heard so far in the 1.5 years i have been into good sound, i would stay with a pair of older klipschorns, good cable, and a low powered amplifier with awesome resolution. Thoughts anyone?:-) -akhilesh
Personally, I would keep the Klipschorns. Have you listened to the lowther TP1 London? http://www.lowtherloudspeakers.com/tp1.html
Haven;t heard them. Do you know of anyone who has plans available? At some point in my life i would be very interested in building a horn loaded speaker based on a lowther driver, and the TP1 may be the way to go. IMHO, lowther drivers are so individually idosyncratic that i would probbaly buy the drivers first, measure them and then design the horn dimensions for them. however, the TP1s may just blow my mind. I used to think multi driver systems would induce coloration till i heard my klipschorns...seriously, with 3 horns i don;t have any problems at all. They sound just fine to me. Wish i could hear the Tp1s! Anyone near oklahoma have a pair? -akhilesh
I had a pair bought new in 1975 that have resided with my brother for about 22 years (this house doesn't work with them) and agree with the keeper comment. I audition quite a bit (and have run several boxes through here)and I still find good three ways more pleasing and three way horns the most pleasing.
I haven't had the pleasure of Klipschorns yet, but I do own a pair of Heresy 1's, and if the K-horns sound like that only better, I just wish I could afford a pair. The Heresy's are the best sounding speakers I've yet owned. Dave My Site
Have you ever heard Cornwalls? They sound great too. Personally, I always liked the looks of the LaScalas and the Belles. They lack some bass, but they do wonderfully from 60Hz up. But if you've never heard Klipschorns, you really should make an effort to do so. They are a great sounding speaker, especially when you consider that they were designed during WWII. When I look at a Klipschorn, I visualize the era. B-17's were thundering across the skies and people were listening to world events on RCA Victor five-tube table radios. This is the time when Klipschorns were first built, and knowing that is what really makes them special to me.
Hi Wayne, I plan on hearing some of the bigger Klipsch speakers, including the K-horn, later this week at a dealer in Lansing. I'm afraid I may lust for them after that, and I know I can't afford them now. I think it's worth the risk of that to satisfy my curiosity, though. I use subs with my Heresy's, so no lack of bass, and I am pretty happy with the sound. Dave
Hey Dave! Small planet! You responded to an e-mail on another forum and sent me to Pi speakers !!! And, smaller planet yet---Wayne and Pi are right here in my own backyard! (Tulsa) and 10 days later I'm roaming around here about Hersey's and you pop in ---that it's your speaker of choice--used to have Maggies and thes are so different--tell me a little about how you run them and have your room set up --Do you get them up off the floor much---at first I was not impressed (read blown away!) as almost no sound stage--but, last night I was playing some Dave Brubeck and was sitting on the floor infront of the speakers and could hear the conga playing 6-8 ft behind the speakers!--Getting used to what they do and getting my ears to listen too! But--I have a pair of Omega super 3's coming sooon too---may start a DYI project with a pair of Pi Thermonic 3's---really into the idea of the best tube amp sytem (2 spkers 1 amp 1 source ) for $2000---Jim
Dave, you mentioned on your web site you modified your Hersey's---how so?
Share with us how you feel, especially your opinion on how they compare to other speakers you have heard. I have never heard a new pair....mine are from 1978. thanx! -akhilesh
Here is my two cents on the Heresy - 1 - I haven't particularly liked the sound with the flea power amps I have heard, although folks I respect say they do (however, I have not heard it on the same equipment as they). As to More power, they sound quite nice on some of the Fisher stuff I used to own and I hear pretty food things about the Scott 299c and D with them. The tubes I liked were at about 13 - 20 wpc and well below your $2,000 bogey. They definitely sound 'warmer' with tubes. The mids and highs are not so distinctly there for certain things - that can be good or bad based on your perspective. 2 - They need some help in bass reproduction, so a supplemental woofer (sub) comes in handy. They roll off pretty quick after 70hz. Without a sub - lots of folks prefer the Cornwalls for just this reason. Some tube amps (like the vintage Scotts mentioned above) have a center channel that can be used for a powered sub. 3 - I have had Heresy speakers somewhere around me for 29 years. I prefer them 1 - 2 feet above my head and very near the corners. I then angle and adjust to get a respectfully wide sweet spot (I guess you could say my 'soundstage'). They can be directional and may be I use the corners for the rflections. All that seems to be a bit wrong in the logic department, but what can I say other than they really seem to shine there for me (and I have tried them in many set ups). 4 - I like them with good reasonably powered SS - the HK740 in my office is very good with them (and was fairly cheap when I picked it up). As an aside - the 740 is darn good with the 2 PI and they may end up in the next rotation on this reciever. 5 - I really tried to stay away from the sounstage discussion, but I'll dive in. You may have hit the point - getting use to the sound could take a bit (after 29 years I wouldn't know anymore) and let's you relax. I do know that you can get a reasonably good feel of being surrounded by sound with good recordings. There is a big however here, there are quite a few larger all horn speakers that will do a better job (as well as the right powered - gasp - Dynaudios, etc.), but I believe many (if not most) folks will like the limited compromises you make for this speaker when the find how little damage there is to the pocketbook. Probably more than you wanted - all is IMHO. I do like the speaker and in the right sized room, right equipment and a good source recording - you should have a good experience. Henry
Hi Jim, The audio world is rather small at that! You can see my stereo set-up on my website. Having the Heresy's off the ground helps imaging a lot. Also, tilt them back and toe in so you are looking right down the throat of the horns. There is a trick moving a wire from tap two to tap one on the crossover autoformer on the Heresy midranges that lower the mids output a couple of decibles that makes them even better, and improves imaging a bit, also. You need to add 16 Ohm resistors to the mid driver for the crossover to be at the correct frequency with this change. It's simpe to do and well worth the effort. There's more info on this on the Klipsch Forum, as well as a tweek called the P-trap for older Heresy 1's. Do you have 1's or 2's? Dave My Site
Well, I went and heard a nicely set up pair of Klipschorns at Stereo Shoppe in Lansing, Michigan, today. They were, I believe, a 1986 model the store bought new and has used as a reference ever since. They were powered by a ss Rotel amp. I listened to some acoustic jazz I was familiar with. What's surprising is just how similar they sounded to my Heresy's with added open baffle subwoofers. The k-horns sounded bigger, of course, being much more efficient, but the family sound was very similar. It sounded like they would image better, also, but without comparing in the same room, I can't say for sure. At any rate, it showed my that my Heresy's aren't just poor cousins. I suspect the Heresy's get close to 90% of the quality of the big k-horn's, but at a much cheaper price. Still, If I could stumble on to a pair of Klipschorn's at the right price, I'd sure grab them up in a hurry. Dave
Other mods include lightly stuffing the box with polyfill or other stuffing and add a couple of 1" dowel rods for bracing. Using a good subwoofer helps bring the bottom up to par with the rest of the system. Dave :^)
A place to go for conversation on this..
This thread at Klipsch.com talks about folks preferences and experience: http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=42632&sessionID={912F50D2-4737-4ACB-B2FB-3B1179F26927}
Very interesting suggestions---First thing I can do is re-arrange my speaker positions as suggested---I have a couple of locals that may be of assistance on the crossover changes (as I am a novice ) Thanks for the ideas Dave Jim
Re: Sorry about my other non reply, so ...
Henry, I must concur with the speaker postioning at a higher point--but getting those heavy dudes up over 3-4 ft is a trick--and I am on to try the corners also---I also see (now after some time listening to many CD's) the quality of the said Cd and the source makes all the diff in this speaker! (Duh!) My room is of particular concern (smallish I think) but I have a few watts to throw at them too, I'm pushing a 18watt Pilot and a Apt Holman pre---which has not seen the volume setting on high noon ---I don't want to be out replacing windows in this weather!!! I do see the value of a lot of listening and moving speakers to develop that "spot"---Some others have mentioned these speakers in HT---is that their "forte' " I wonder? I have some Omega Super 3's coming ---in the mean time....I could rent 2 crains and .................where is the sawsall? JD
here is a pair / probably won't see this again
Frank at Sophia Electronics has a pair. Speakers: 1. top of the line Lowther TP-1 single drive horn(front horn and back horn with a single driver) speakers(go down to 30 hz) in Rosewood finish. 104dB efficiency, great for low power single ended amplifiers. Was customer trade in. Box enclosure special for $2500 per pair(was $7500). Lowther drivers(PM2) is $950 per pair, about a few hundred hours milage. Local pick up.
I've noticed that these speakers are absolutely non-forgiving of CD quality. They won't help a bad CD to sound good. But they will make a great CD sound great. I don't know of another speaker anywhere near the price that will really let you know what's on a CD (or any other source) better then the Heresy's. Dave
Dave---easy for you!!!! But hey! I not gutless either!!! Talked Wayne to help me thru my first speaker surgury! Polyfil? special or like pollow stuffing? I'll find something--probably best to be inorganic? You and Henry were right--getting them up higher was big change ---more after patient recovers Dr J out
Another hidden cost to the addiction of listening! But if ya put crap in ya gonna get crap out----I have been getting some classical stuff form our local Library (in an effort to hear a lot more music in general) and some of the recordings were made from live performances which is probalbly ther method like when Maria Callas was performing --some are ok but this one tape had someone in the audience who should have stayed home with a cough that bad!
Re: here is a pair / probably won't see this again
Hey, where is Sophia Electronics? thanx -akhilesh
Pillow stuffing should work fine for stuffing. Just nicely fill the box, don't pack it in. Dave
How are you coming along with your Heresy modifications? You were attenuating your midrange section, right? You were planning to change the transformer tap and put a shunt resistor across the midrange driver to maintain the proper load impedance. Is that what you said you were planning to do? Is that all you were planning to do?
Well - I thought I might give you a few shots of my Heresy based HT setup. The last picture is an example of a unique location for Heresy. Just paste the following in your Browser address bar: http://www.home.earthlink.net/~hwatkins/id63.htm As an added bonus, here is my finished 2 Pi speakers: http://www.home.earthlink.net/~hwatkins/id62.htm
http://www.sophiaelectric.com/ Sorry I left off the URL; I just read your post. Hope they still have them. If I had the money I would have picked then up. Good luck!
Wayne, Were you asking what I had done, or if Jim had done them? On mine, I put 16 Ohm resistors on the squawker, changed autoformer to lower efficiency a bit in the mids, added dowel to box to stiffen, put plumbers putty on outside of the horn and woofer basket, added stuffing to inside of box and built the P-trap for the squawker. I think that covers everything I've done to the old 1975 Heresy's. They sound MUCH better then when I found them. Dave :^) My Site
Nice pics, and interesting way of using Heresy's. I'm curious, how would you describe the difference in sound between the Heresy's and the 2-Pi's? I listened to a pair of 2-Pi's a year or so back and was impressed, but I never had a chance to hear them and Heresy's together, and I bought the Heresy's several months later and my sonic memory is weak. Dave
Hi Dave! I think Jim is following in your footsteps. I understand he is putting a 16 ohm resistor across the midrange and changing the transformer tap too. I'm pretty sure he learned this from you, here on the forum. He told me that he's bracing the boxes like you've described too. I expect Jim will let us know when he has had some time to install the parts and evaluate the changes. Wayne
between the Heresy and 2 Pi. It is very much what I expected: 2 Pi - disregarding labor, materials for the 2Pi was less than $275 total. For that price I could not imagine a better new speaker. It is very efficient and a surprising two way. The Eminence speaker was an instant success to my ear. I still have some difficulty with the tweeter in a comparison with the Heresy, but when not comparing the two it is a reasonable solution. As a speaker I intend to give to my daughter that was more of a 'carpentry practice', I was more than pleasantly surprised and may well keep (move to my office) until I think her ear deserves it (grin). Heresy - I still have an affinity for the two horns on this speaker and most everything above 700- 800hz is a joy (at my age - not having much above 16Khz seems to be of little relevance). As expected the stuff below 700hz is not my favorite part of this speaker. For overall performance, I will be staying with the Heresy. However, there BR portion of Wayne's design is a very pleasant surprise and is why I will be making something akin to a Pi aligned three way with horns for the higher freqs and BR for the lower freqs. Also - even if comparing with the used market, the 2 Pi can be significantly cheaper than Heresy II and an interestingly equitable performer, especially in the Low freqs. Henry
Thanks for the comparison. Have you ever tried something like plumbers putty on the woofer basket of the Heresy's? I tried this, along with filling the box with stuffing and adding a dowel brace to the box, and the bass sound improved imensely. Everything got "taunter" and had more impact. Dave
Those changes, but when I added a better sub (SVS 20-39 pci) I resolved most issues I had with the sound. I haven't worked up the desire to break into them, especially the HIs in the ceiling can be a bear to get at. I will probably build the new three way first and see what happens. As you can see I am taking a cornwall approach to my new listening area.
Good luck with building new ones, sounds like fun. Dave
Were these driven by solid state? IMHO, only high quality SETs should be used with Khorns. They are very quick to reveal upstream problems and third order distortions by solid state stuff will be emphasized. In fact, if the setup has so-so solid state upstream with poor cables, they would probbaly sound like other speakers, or maybe even much worse. But if you have a clean SET amp, good cables and a clean source...OHHH my. I have a pair of Khorns from 1978...so they still have alnico magnets...though in horns i am not sure how important that is. I have to say I am EXTREMELY satisfied with them. While they are a pain to move and to set up, they are well worth it. I can get GIANT sound using my 2 watt zen se84C (which is of course amazingly clear & detailed). My cables are transparent plus (which are amazingly ahem transparent). Now all i need to do is upgrade the source...sigh. saving up for a DAC. Will probbaly get one this summer. Overall....these speakers are highly detailed and very very fast. I can actually hear my midfi CD players' shortcomings now (i have a NAD c541i & a sony XA20ES) ....esp. after i recently upgraded the speaker cables & ICs. I would say that Khorns are a work of genius. I take my hat off to Mr. Paul Klipsch. In the brochure, he writes that these are the finest speakers money can buy, so he clearly liked them! ANother testimony: they have been around since 1948! Even the Quad ESLs have not been around that long, and stereophile editors drool over those! If you go to audioreview and read reviews on khorns, you'll maybe see why so many people like them. -akhilesh PS Did i mention i love my khorns?
I have a pair of K'horns drived by Pass Lab. Aleph 3 in San Diego. You may come and listen for the sound when you tell more about you.