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Re: Wal-Mart Abandons Germany [message #55421 is a reply to message #55418] Thu, 10 August 2006 09:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Actually according to what is defined as a "Monopsony" their pricing structure is predatory. You are confused as to exactly how this kind of pricing structure works. By forcing manufacturers to cut their cost to the bone they underbid existing business structures who are abiding by the environmental rules; providing decent wages and health care for their employees. Rather than bore the heck out of everyone lets look at one aspect of this model. How about the definition of Monopoly?

"A situation in which a single company owns all or nearly all of the markett for a given type of product or service. This would occur in the case where there is a barrier to entry into the industry that allows the single company to operate without compettition,( for example vast economies of scale; barriers to entry or governmental regulation.) In such an industry structure the producer will often produce a volume that is less than the amount that would maximise social welfare."
Thats the economists definition of Monopoly; which by the way I never said Wal-Mart was; I said it utilised monopolistic practice to shut down other suppliers.
But actually it is the real definition of a "Monopsony". You can look that up if you want to know something about this subject.
As to your last statement I would suggest you do the research as this looks like you are completely in the dark regarding basic economics.

Re: Wal-Mart Abandons Germany [message #55423 is a reply to message #55421] Thu, 10 August 2006 11:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Damir is currently offline  Damir
Messages: 1005
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (2nd Degree)
You can even find confessions of some manufacturers, where WM is the one who orders the price in a way "we can find this product in China for $1, if you want a deal, you can get $0,90". And another year - "we want you to cut your price on $0,80"...

Re: Wal-Mart Abandons Germany [message #55424 is a reply to message #55421] Thu, 10 August 2006 12:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
Messages: 1275
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
Monopsony:
A market situation in which the product or service of several sellers is sought by only one buyer.

SO on the one hand you say they do "monopolistic practioses" (ie they behave as a monopoly) and on the other hand you say they are also a monopsony.
I don't see any point in continuing this dicussion, one of us lacks a knowledge of basic economic theory & how the free market works.
-akhilesh

Re: Wal-Mart Abandons Germany [message #55426 is a reply to message #55424] Thu, 10 August 2006 13:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Absolutely; I admire your honesty.

Re: Wal-Mart Abandons Germany [message #55427 is a reply to message #55423] Thu, 10 August 2006 13:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
There are literally hundreds of examples of this; bordering on flagrant violations of trade laws. Do they have the Wal by you?

Re: Wal-Mart Abandons Germany [message #55432 is a reply to message #55427] Fri, 11 August 2006 06:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Damir is currently offline  Damir
Messages: 1005
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (2nd Degree)
No, but many domestic and large EU companies opened their halls on literally "every" village here... Say, the town of 30-50000 people without any industry (and money:-)), but with 10 big shopping halls with big parking lots...and many small shops in almost every street, without plans and order...destroying every small shop business of ordinary people. Tons of "Made in China" garbage...and food of "suspicious" quality and origin, sometimes...
Yeah, even I bought a DVD player yesterday for $38...not bad, if you know that tax on every goods are 22%...

Re: Wal-Mart Abandons Germany [message #55433 is a reply to message #55432] Fri, 11 August 2006 09:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Exactly!! They ply the stiffs with toys and trinkets while stealing the very economy from under us. Hey I get a cheap DVD; but there are thirty guys out of work becuase of it; and now I pay twice what I would in taxes to make up the shortfall. Not a good trade in my book; I'd rather pay 100$ for the dvd and save a thousand on my taxes.
Thats Wal-Mart in it's pure essence.

Economic Theory [message #55434 is a reply to message #55424] Sat, 12 August 2006 08:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
FredT is currently offline  FredT
Messages: 704
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
I don't believe either of you lacks an understanding of basic economic theory and how the free market works. In a free market, competition among the providers of goods and services forces each provider to sell at prices that their customers perceive as the best price/quality combination. Otherwise, their customers will buy from a competitor. The benefits of this system versus a state-run monopoly are clear.

But in the case of Wal Mart we are witnessing a new paradigm - a monopoly (or monopsony) that is able to provide the lowest prices by bullying their providers (suppliers, communities, employees, etc.) to sell their goods and services for less. There's no question that Wal Mart customers appreciate their low prices, and that these low prices benefit society by forcing Wal Mart's competitors to lower prices, enbaling people to have more for less.

The problem with the power of Wal Mart and other mega corporatins is that there's an enormous hidden cost. Their suppliers, required to lower prices year after year, are forced to move their manufacturing facilities overseas to comply, thus jobs are lost. Of course they could just say no, but Wal Mart is so big that they can't afford to not be a supplier and remain in business. Communities, desparate for new businesses to generate jobs, are forced to provide tax incentives to attract Wal Mart stores. Then when Wal Mart opens a store small competitors in the community go under - notice the closed and boarded businesses on the main street of any small town that has a Wal Mart. Local people desperate for employment accept Wal Mart jobs because there are no other options, and are forced to work for wages that don't permit them to buy medical insurance, forcing the State to assume the cost of medical treatment for the uninsured. It goes on and on. Wal Mart isn't unique, but by virtue of its enormous size and clout it is able to do these things more effectively than competitors.

As a conservative/moderate type I would prefer to ignore these adverse effects. I like low prices. I'm not a Wal Mart supplier, I can afford medical insurance, I'm retired so it's unlikely my job will be exported to China, etc. But as the number of people effected by this phenomenon grows, it becomes impossible to have any social conscience and not be concerned about it.

I don't know the answer, but I know it isn't simple. I suppose it rests in legislators' and regulators' ability and willingness to view Wal Mart and other mega corporations as monopolistic in their dealings with suppliers, customers, and communities, and to enact regulations that limit its power. Not likely, because these mega corporations now fund elections through their PAC's.



Re: Economic Theory [message #55435 is a reply to message #55434] Sat, 12 August 2006 12:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Thanks Fred; I could not have said it better myself. In my ramblings I may have been slightly crude but you summed the situation up nicely. Akhilesh exhibits the real issue I tried to illuminate; the fact that people are oblivious to the ramifications of Wal-Marts effect on society. One of the points you make I would elaborate on is the lop-sided legal structure that enables them to operate in this fashion without consequences. If there were a Union inplace they would have to play by the rules to a greater extant; which is why they abandoned doing business in Canada.
I know unions are not a panacea; but in this case they are a necessity.

Re: Economic Theory [message #55438 is a reply to message #55434] Sat, 12 August 2006 19:28 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18686
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I did several very large projects for Wal-Mart in the mid-1980's. One was a communications device that I designed to connect bar-code readers to Series One computers used in each of the stores. It allowed them to choose from more vendors of bar-code readers because my device supported more protocols. I made a proof-of-concept prototype, and then when the project won approval, I made thousands of these devices to put them in each of the stores. I also did similar devices for other projects, some telephony products and some general-purpose devices like a NiCad charger for the hand-held bar-code readers that reduced memory effect. That one little product saved them 11 million dollars per year in batteries.

I received payments for each of my invoices in about 90 days, which I understand from other vendors was better treatment than most companies got. Some waited 120 days and more for payment. Wal-Mart wanted extremely competitive pricing, and they used vendors from around the world so they could find the lowest price possible. But I didn't blame them for any of these things - It was their right and I saw it as reasonably smart.

However, I got tired of working so hard for pennies. I did earn a profit on my designs, and the quantities involved made each project fairly lucrative. But in the end, I didn't feel it was worth it. So I stopped dealing with Wal-Mart after a few projects. Seems to me everyone has the same choice. If you don't want to deal with Wal-Mart, don't.


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