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One Pi with sub in one cabinet (ie: 3-way) [message #37467] Wed, 24 July 2002 06:53 Go to next message
spkrman57
Messages: 522
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
Wayne,
I will first admit you like 2-way systems (Yes, I love my 3677's w/2226 and 2418/2373-maybe like first cousin of your Pro 4 Pi). I have various speakers here and there in my house and was wondering about a 1 Pi with a 1st order low-pass on a 15" mated with a 1st order high pass on the Alpha 8. Actually, I was thinking 6 mh coil on Jbl 2205A and 47 ufd cap on the Alpha 8. (these values were picked as closest matching components I have in-house at moment and seemed to maybe mesh somewhere around 300 hz. The Alpha 8 and KSN-1038 would be housed in a sub-enclosure within the 2205's enclosure. I looked at your 4 Pi plans (1982w/2205-x1/2105-x2/KSN-1041-x2) and then it hit me, I liked the idea using the Alpha 8 instead of 2105(x2) and the KSN-1038 you use to match up the Pi 1 with could be used instead of KSN-1041(x2). I think this would be a great combination. The entire setup would be no larger than your orig 4 Pi (of 1982) being around 2 to 2 1/2 cubic '. Just my lone "Braincell" running loose again. But, seriously, I would love to hear comments on this. This would be cheaper to some folks than buying compression driver and horn, and crossover parts I think would be cheaper. You use 1.8 mh coil on JBL 2205A/H for psuedo (shave midrange only). You used a 3.6 mh coil on your (1982) 2205A/H for 1st order crossover. but you had both 2105's shunted with cap and resistor in series with each other through I think (off top of my head - memeory shortage here) 1 mh coil and 8 ufd cap. I really liked the piezo crossover (I think 18db/oct RC network). Could the Ist order solution I gave work with only coil on 15" and cap on 8" using natural rolloff for the rest???????
Thanks for listening.
Capt Ron
Re: One Pi with sub in one cabinet (ie: 3-way) [message #37472 is a reply to message #37467] Wed, 24 July 2002 13:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18676
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)
I think the woofer to mid crossover should be kept as low and as simple as possible, perhaps even omitted entirely. That way the overlap will reduce any floor bounce notch that might otherwise be present.

Sounds like an interesting project! Please keep us posted!

Re: One Pi with sub in one cabinet (ie: 3-way) [message #37489 is a reply to message #37472] Thu, 25 July 2002 09:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris R. is currently offline  Chris R.
Messages: 82
Registered: May 2009
Viscount
JBL 2123's are available for $130ea. Higher than lots of the other
deals, but have a ruler flat response from about 200->5KHz.
There's a PDF of the specs with the graphs.
Re: One Pi with sub in one cabinet (ie: 3-way) [message #37521 is a reply to message #37472] Fri, 26 July 2002 08:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
spkrman57
Messages: 522
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
Wayne,
I ordered a pair of KSN-1038A's from Parts Express only to find out when I received shipment they are out of them. Okay, so I saved $8.50 per piezo by not having them. Was disappointed, I have a lot of misc piezo's and wanted to try out the one you use in 1 and 2 Pi's. I did not know that the 2105's reached up to 10Khz, that being the case, is that why you used the KSN 1041's instead of the ksn 1038's????? I know the Alpha 8's are good to 5khz, so I will try the system breadboarded and see what happens, I will post the results for the curious ones here.
I have another question, when I pruchase coils from parts express, they alway come out a little low in measured value, but the coils with the iron cores come out in the high end measured out. I just got two .7mh 14 guage and they come out the closest (of the others I have bought there in the past) as far as the air cores go (.683mh if I bend wires totally in coil, will go to .685mh) I finally got some 8 ohm 2226's (I already had 2226J's - 16 ohm) I am going to try and properly port the 3677 cabinets this time. Previously I removed the foam from the two 3" ports and they played pretty well (the 2226J's that is). Thanks, Capt Ron
Re: One Pi with sub in one cabinet (ie: 3-way) [message #37526 is a reply to message #37521] Fri, 26 July 2002 13:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18676
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)
The KSN 1038, 1041 and 1056 are basically the same tweeter, different only in cosmetics. One has a chrome trim, one has a chrome trim and chrome phase plug and the other is all black. I forget which is which, and I've always tended to order the 1038's.

About the coils, don't fret a 2% variance. The crossover filters don't need any more precision than that, and in fact, 5% and even 10% is fine in some cases.

Re: Some questions to Wayne about variations of this idea [message #37558 is a reply to message #37467] Mon, 29 July 2002 12:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erik Johansson is currently offline  Erik Johansson
Messages: 65
Registered: May 2009
Viscount
I like these discussions as I plan to make som LF-cabinets (separate though) for my 1 Pi speakers if I like them once finished (built and veneered now. Currently working on the finish, got 6 layers of laquer on them so far...).

I plan to follow Wayne´s recommendation and choose a pair of Delta 15 drivers. I´d love some help to get the dimensions for a pialigned cabinet (with driver placement on the baffles, etc which the little program does not help me with) for these drivers. Also Wayne, does the Delta 15 integrate well with the Alpha 8 or should I choose the Alpha 15? Also, how big is the difference between the Delta 12LF and Delta 15 in deep-bass capabilities?

/Erik

Theater three π vs. four π [message #37568 is a reply to message #37558] Mon, 29 July 2002 22:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18676
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)
The two speakers are very similar in tonal character, actually. The 15 sounds a little "bigger" and the 12 sounds a little "fuller."

To quantify the differences, first know that the lower -3dB point is virtually the same on both speakers, at 50Hz. That, in itself, is significant because the Theater three π is much smaller than the Theater four π. The four π is more than twice as large as the three π, so that may be an important consideration for many people.

But the the four π has more rising response through the midrange, and so is louder but also depends more on room placement to bring up the depest bass. The three π has a response curve that looks almost like a sealed box, with a slow but consistent rolloff to its -10dB point at 27Hz. The four π has a curve that's more like an EBS alignment, which means there is a shelved response that's good down to about 20Hz. That's about a half octave lower than the three π goes, but again, with more of a rising response profile through the midrange.

Size and efficiency are important considerations in favor of the three π speakers. Since you're planning to match this bass system with one π's - effectively making a three-way system with the one π speakers forming the midrange and tweeter subsystems - you might like the three π cabinet because it matches in efficiency and has a very attractive small "footprint."

One final thing - If you plan to run a tube amp, the four π speaker will be perfectly fine, but the three π speaker might work best with push-pull tube amps or solid state. If you plan to run a SET amp, it probably should be pretty powerful with good damping ability if you plan to drive three π's. It isn't so much the power I'm looking for, because these are very efficient speakers. But the three π woofers work best with an amp with good damping ability.

So there are valid reasons to go with each speaker; There are strengths and weaknesses with each one. Let us know which you choose, and how it works out!

Re: Theater three π vs. four π [message #37569 is a reply to message #37568] Mon, 29 July 2002 23:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erik Johansson is currently offline  Erik Johansson
Messages: 65
Registered: May 2009
Viscount
Wow thanks for that great answer Wayne!

However, when I run Pialign it suggests a 5.2 cu feet box for the Delta 15 but the Theater 4 Pi is much bigger than that isn´t it?

Also, does the Alpha 15 give MUCH lower bass than the Delta 15 (in it´s bigger box)? Or is it similar?

/Erik

Re: Theater three π vs. four π [message #37570 is a reply to message #37568] Mon, 29 July 2002 23:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erik Johansson is currently offline  Erik Johansson
Messages: 65
Registered: May 2009
Viscount
Also, is the Theater 3 Pi good with a fairly "powerful" tube amp at 2x14W?

/Erik

Theater three π, Theater four π and Thermionic four π [message #37571 is a reply to message #37569] Tue, 30 July 2002 00:08 Go to previous message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18676
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)
The Thermionic Series four π has a lower -3dB point of 40Hz, and -10dB point of about 25Hz. It has usable output just under -10dB (about -13dB) all the way down to 15Hz. So this speaker generates deep bass, but it is also absolutely huge. The Theater four π is smaller, but still a large box. It works well on any amplifier, from the flea-power SET amps to larger prosound amps. The Theater three π is smaller still, a nice size in my opinion, and it works well on most amps. I would suggest a trial on very low-power SET amps but it is fine on all others.
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