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meeting write-ups [message #56064] Thu, 06 January 2005 19:04 Go to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
You know; lately whenever there is a write up of a meeting where individuals show their DIY projects they all sound great; or they have very good synergy with the other components; or jaws drop; etc.
Everything can't sound great but if it does then why not just build the cheapest equipment mentioned?
Personally If I am showing something I built I want an honest appraisal; backslapping doesn't help me learn or improve.
One thing I always liked about playing music or sports is if something you did sucked there were many there to inform you of that fact; and thats how you improved your playing, by accepting criticism and adjusting.

Re: meeting write-ups [message #56065 is a reply to message #56064] Fri, 07 January 2005 02:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
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Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)
That's true. What I try to do is to mention equipment I like, maybe saying that I prefer one to another. Sometimes stuff really sucks but more often than not, at the level where someone is proud enough to bring something for a "show and tell," it is pretty good. At least, that's what I've found here. So it's less of good verses bad, and more like good, better, best.

Re: meeting write-ups [message #56067 is a reply to message #56064] Sat, 15 January 2005 19:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
colinhester is currently offline  colinhester
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Location: NE Arkansas
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
As we all know too well, music reproduction is the one "science" that can be simulated to the nth degree, but the one factor, and the most influential, that cannot be accounted for is emotional attachment. Emotion being in either the piece of music being played or how it is reproduced. I believe this is a truism that cannot be argued.

Now the question is: how does one divorce the emotional attachment from the real audible differences? Well, you don't. I believe the phrase goes something like "music soothes the savage beast." Our listening experiences are emotional.

You say you want an honest critique and not a slap on the back. Whose standards are you going to trust. To quote another old saying (I'm full of old sayings tonight): one man's trash is another man's treasure. Honestly, who's to say what is the standard by which the sound should be judged.

Critiquing your own system or someone else's cannot be quantified like running the 40 yard dash - no stop watch. Moreover, this is not like auditioning for a band - either the notes are played correctly in time or not. There are no hard-fast numbers to report. Even if there are truly audible differences, how does one convey these differences in a meaningful, mutually understandable vernacular?

I'm not trying to argue against you, but I am simply posing the question of how this process of "honest evaluation" works. I don't know. Years ago, when I was less mature, if you said anything negative about my system we would not be on speaking terms. Today if you were to call my DIY baby ugly, it would be taken as a sign of friendship. I would appreciate the honesty. Is this a difference in my maturity level (being able to take the bad review) or is this my maturation in the hobby, for now I know there are lots of different tastes? Again, I don't know.

To be quite frank: if I build it, it sounds beautiful. It may have sonic flaws, it might not look pretty, but damnit I built it. Therefore, I automatically have a positive emotional bias to the way it sounds. Don't ever try to take that away.....(Insert virtual slap on back here)......Colin


Re: meeting write-ups [message #56068 is a reply to message #56067] Sun, 16 January 2005 11:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Logical Fallacy; (ask the better half.) You can't assume because emotion is attached to any endeavor it is deRiguer unapproachable. People have no problem discerning a very good performance of music from a mediocre performance of the same piece in the same hall under the same orchestra; correct? So why is that not possible to do the same with an electronically reproduced performance?
I have stated before in this forum; there is a reference standard. A system of components that, when people enter the room they know immediatelly that this sounds good. If that is true and I know we have all experienced that; then take that supposition to the logical conclusion.
It may be a question of degree to some extent but you know when you hear a pair of; lets say Klipsch Cornerhorns vs. a pair of Cerwin Vegas that there is a quality difference right?
How do you know that?
Whatever aspect of mental acuity that allows you to make that determination applies to what I said about a reference standard.
I maybe cannot assume what I like is good but I can tell if it sounds like real music. Thats the key; because if it is anything else then we would all have Bose Wave Radios.
Addressing the issue of personal response to criticism. Thats up to the individual. If you are secure with your choices then other opinions hold no potential for devalidating your choices. I am more interested in the carefully thought out criticism than I am in the polite exuberance. That to me is worthless and unuseable and serves to accomplish nothing. In fact I know when someone is patronizing my efforts and I resent it. It is like cooking something that tastes like crap and getting the polite nod while they funnell it under the table to the dog.
With my DIY efforts believe me you will not have to extend any critical appraisal that will be more severe than the one I grant my own efforts. If my stuff suck's I will be the first to say it. And I hope I can count on the same courtesy from others.
What do you think of the new pre-amp direction; C?


Re: meeting write-ups [message #56072 is a reply to message #56068] Sun, 16 January 2005 13:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
colinhester is currently offline  colinhester
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Registered: May 2009
Location: NE Arkansas
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I wish we could get together and talk about this face to face. This is going to a fun discussion. I'm playing Mr. Mom today, so I'll break my reply up in parts. I realize our view points are different, but we are both talking about the top 90%+ of audio reproduction. I believe it's just a different approach to the last 10%.


You wrote: "Logical Fallacy; (ask the better half.) You can't assume because emotion is attached to any endeavor it is deRiguer unapproachable."

Taking a loose sociological interpertation of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principal: once a system is observed, the system is changed. Therefore, I would argue that there will ALWAYS be a bias. There is no way around it.

You wrote: "I have stated before in this forum; there is a reference standard. A system of components that, when people enter the room they know immediatelly that this sounds good. If that is true and I know we have all experienced that; then take that supposition to the logical conclusion"

I think this is where we differ in our approach. I would say there is no standard refernce system. Have you ever been in a bad mood and put your favorite piece of music on? You know, just to cheer yourself up? Sure, everyone has done this. So now, how do you remove emotion from a critical evaluation? Music stirs the emotions. And I would argue that the converse statement is true as well: Emotions stir the music.

Gotta go, the kids are crawling all over me.....Best regards, Colin


Re: meeting write-ups [message #56073 is a reply to message #56072] Sun, 16 January 2005 13:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18670
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)


Music stirs the emotions. And I would argue that the converse statement is true as well: Emotions stir the music.
    ...
Gotta go, the kids are crawling all over me



    So maybe now would be a good time to play the Talking Heads, "Burning Down the House?"




Re: meeting write-ups [message #56074 is a reply to message #56072] Sun, 16 January 2005 14:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
A bad mood may make you less appreciative of the particular selection you chose; but the recording and the equipment are the same. My perception of the sound of my set-up has been consistant since I assembled it; even if sometimes I don't feel like listening. And this still does not address the issue of why a really good sound is recogniseable immediately.
I have not heard anyone complain about listening to a really nice 300b amp through good hornloaded speakers yet. They may choose other components for themselves but still are aware of the quality of the sound they experienced with that system.
Even if you have a bad day you know the Audio Note Conquerors through Avant Garde' Uno's sound good.
Colin; the Uncertainty Pricipal deals with observation on the Quantum level, I haven't met anyone who has experienced that particular event.
I know a Martin 1952 D-28 sounds good w/o any prompting or emotion. How can that be??
Try this for the little guys; Scotch and Milk; keeps 'em calm and peacefull. Always worked for my guys. Don't use the single malt, cheap stuff will do.

Re: meeting write-ups [message #56075 is a reply to message #56073] Sun, 16 January 2005 17:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
colinhester is currently offline  colinhester
Messages: 1349
Registered: May 2009
Location: NE Arkansas
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
I was thinking something by The Doors would be more fitting, like "The End."

Re: meeting write-ups [message #56076 is a reply to message #56075] Sun, 16 January 2005 17:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18670
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)


Re: meeting write-ups [message #56077 is a reply to message #56074] Sun, 16 January 2005 20:51 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
colinhester is currently offline  colinhester
Messages: 1349
Registered: May 2009
Location: NE Arkansas
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
The ol' brain is kinda fried right now, so I'll try to make sence.

I agree that when one hears a good system it's obvious the sound is quality. What makes it so and how does one put a number to it? That's a question that will never be answered, because it can't be. I guess one could also ask: What makes a beautiful woman beautiful? What makes a painting a classic? It's all in the eye (in our case - ear) of the beholder

Each culture has an ideal of beauty that is different from others. These ideals are not constant and change as the culture changes. To apply a set "audio reference" is, in my opinion, different for everyone. Audio reproduction would be considered ideal if were able to reproduce live performances. But what if the music being played is purely studio work or even totally electronic. Works such as these will never be heard "live." Or what if one's frame of reference is club music. Does my "reference" system need to produce ONLY volume and lots of bass?

The people that have 300B amps with large horns have truely great systems. Out of all the people that have stereos in their homes, what percentage have this kind of setup? 0.0001%? I agree a 300B with horns is about as close to perfections as one can get. There are obviously other ways there, but this is a good route. Now why is this combination that good? It IS that good, or I have been TOLD it is supposed to be that good. I suspect the answer lies somewhere between the two. No one goes to the local audio store and buys a 300B/horn system on the spur of the moment. There was lots of research (reading / listening) done prior to purchase. There was already an expectation of how it was going to sound.

I guess that's my point for right now. Before I even hear a system, I have an expectation of how it's going to perform. We all do it. As ojective as we think we are, we are subjective (emotional) creatures. There is no way around that. Earlier you mentioned the Bose Wave Radio. Have you heard one? What did you expect it to sound like? Did it sound like you expected? What about the Klipsch vs. Cerwin Vega sound. Which one do you expect to sound better? Why?

On to lighter things:
- I hope to get the parts ordered for the pre this week. I'm working on a surprise for everyone who builds, so don't tell
- Yes, I know what the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principal is (Thanks Dr. Bennett.) The idea was, errrrr, adapted by Social Sciences to imply that mearly observing a system changes the system. Really, I am not making this up.

......Until next time, Colin



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